Supertramp "Crime of the Century" - mastering comparison & discussion *

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Lucidae, May 21, 2015.

  1. mikaal

    mikaal Sociopathic Nice Guy

    Sorry for sounding condescending. I too look for the best sounding release of the music I buy. Hello...this is not the "I don't care about sound quality" forum, after all!
    It's just for something like COTC I have the tracks on the Best of Supertramp comp. cd and wanted the whole album. I bought a Japanese pressed AM+ and although very nice to the ears could have fuller bass (imo). Now if I could afford to I would hunt down this or that mastering and (knowing me), find something lacking in those too and on and on....that's all I meant.
    By the way you'll know when I lecture you. This was not one of those times.
     
    marcb likes this.
  2. fpas

    fpas Just...take it easy, man.

    Man, that's a bit of a bummer. So I still don't know for sure. I'm not someone to fork over my money, just in hope to get the right version. I want to be sure. Even then, some sellers don't pay any attention to these -for us very important- details. If I suspect the listing is not idiot proof, I send a message to the seller, and sometimes the answer came back negative, i.e. it was a different version.
    Any of you come across a NM copy of that first UK pressing A5/B5, let me know. I want one. (And the Speakers Corner too, but a tad much at €100 now).
     
    princesskiki likes this.
  3. marcb

    marcb Senior Member

    Location:
    DC area
    It's not you per se. I wasn't even going to respond until someone else jumped in with the ol' hear-hear thumbs up.

    It's that there frequently seems to be someone who makes this obligatory comment every time there's an actual discussion (or argument) about the quality of the recording. Hello...we know there are a LOT of people who really don't care about the quality of the recording. That's why this is our sanctuary; if you only want to talk about the music, there are a bajillion places to do that on the net. Don't complain because someone doesn't.

    It's as if those who don't really care much about the quality of the sound of the recording (or who don't really hear the nuanced differences) think they are somehow superior lovers of and listeners to music because they "care" about the music, not the sound.

    I feel better now. :rant:Rant over... :tiphat:
     
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  4. princesskiki

    princesskiki Kiki's Mom

    Hi.

    First, please allow me to explain why I think that the 1st UK LP pressing (A5/B5) was EQ'd at the high and low frequencies: I don't think I will get too many arguments when I say that a mastering engineer can make certain sounds almost "disappear" by EQ'ing but that a mastering engineer cannot make certain instruments appear when they were not in the mixed down tapes or original master tapes. On the 1st UK LP pressing, you cannot hear some of the high frequencies (cymbal crashes and rides) in some parts of the record. It is as if the cymbals were played behind a thick curtain in certain parts of the record. On some of the 1st US LP pressings, however, you can hear those cymbal sounds crystal clear. One of the attractiveness of the 1st UK LP pressing for many people is the full bass sound. It is apparent that 1st UK pressing was EQ'd up at the bass range, especially the mid-bass range. This makes (together with the EQ'ing down at the high frequencies) the record sound warm and punchy. On the other hand, however, the drum and piano sound will suffer at places. Overall, I personally love my 1st UK pressing LP (especially since it is really clean also) but I also love my 1st US LP which probably sounds closer to the original master tapes or mixed down tapes. (Here, people should keep in mind that Supertramp, although a UK band, was signed to A&M, a U.S. company, and A&M owned the master tapes and kept them here in the U.S. Except for weird situations, the first mastering would have been done here in the U.S. using the master tapes.)

    Someone mentioned above that the MFSL LP or CD (I can't remember which one) was EQ'd at the bottom and top end compared to the 1st UK LP. Although I agree that the MFSL LP and CD were EQ'd at the top and bottom end (especially the "echo" parts), I suspect that the MFSL is actually closer to the way the original master or mixed down tapes sound than the 1st UK LP at the top and bottom frequencies.

    I personally like the MFSL LP (and I think the possibility that you will really like the MFSL LP will be higher if you have tube gear), as well as the Canadian "Audiophile" series LP (which, if I remember correctly, sounds very similar to the MFSL LP, if not virtually identical) and Speakers Corner (which I have not played in a long long time). They have been EQ'd a bit here and there, but in a audiophile way.

    I can live happily with any of the records mentioned above, but my go-to seems to be my 1st US LP (which I think is the truest to the original master or mixed down tapes) and my 1st UK LP. But if you have any of the LP's that I mention, I would not spend more money hunting others down unless you are willing to pay for your curiosity.

    As for the 80's CD's, I believe that as your CD player gets better, you will appreciate the CD's increasingly to a point that perhaps, even a die hard vinyl fan may unreservedly like the CD. Although the CD as a medium often appears to lack the bass punch compared to the LP (and sometimes the top frequencies seem a bit edgy), the CD makes up for it in the frequency extension and absence of inner groove distortion (which result in "cleaner" sound).

    I only know of 2 digital transfers in the 80's. In 1983, CBS/Sony Records (also commonly referred to as "CSR" here at the Forums) in Japan did the very first digital transfer of the album and the very first CD pressing. This has the catalog number of A&M CD-3647 with CSR's own job number of DIDZ-10076. Judging from the various matrices of numerous early CSR CD's of this album, this Japan for US market CD was the very first CD pressing in the world. From my numerous casual and careful listening sessions comparing various LP's and CD's of this album over the years on various audio equipment, this is the CD pressing that comes closest to the original master tapes. Aside from the typical CD sound (slightly less punchy bass frequencies and slightly edgy top frequencies), I prefer this CD over many LP's that I have listened to over the years. CSR continued to manufacture this release through some part of 1984.

    In either late 1983 or early 1984, CSR also manufactured this same CD for the European market with the catalog number CDAMLH 68258 with the CSR job number of DIDZ-10077 (please note that the last digit is one higher than the one for the U.S. market). Judging from the matrices of this particular release, the earliest pressing of this release came right after the U.S. release (although the later pressings runs of either release may be either earlier or later than the other). The latest of this release that I have seen was manufactured in late 1984 or 1985. This CD pressing sounds identical to the CSR for the US market.

    Sometime in 1984, CSR changed its job number for this CD released in the US from DIDZ-10076 to DIDX-25, and continued manufacturing this CD for the US market (probably through some part of 1985). This CD pressing sounds identical to the earlier CSR's.

    Sometime in 1985 (or maybe even 1986, since US DADC plant was probably too busy manufacturing CD's for its corporate family member Columbia Records), the then relatively new US plant DADC took over the job from its Japanese parent CSR and started manufacturing this CD for the US market. I remember that this CD again sounds identical to the CSR's.

    In or around 1985, West Germany Polygram also manufactured CD's of this album, one for European market and one for the US market. From listening to this CD, it is apparent that this Polygram CD was mastered from the same digital transfer that CSR did back in 1983. Polygram did their own production mastering but the source is the CSR. This CD sounds very similar to the CSR.

    In or around 1985 (or '86, I can't remember), Denon Japan also manufactured this CD for the US market, again sourced from CSR's 1983 digital transfer. Denon Japan continued manufacturing this CD for the US market until around late 1987, when the then newly opened Denon U.S. plant took over the job. This CD sounds very similar to the CSR.

    Although all the early CD's that I mention above sound excellent and very similar, I still prefer the CSR's. I don't know why but the CSR's of this album are just more involving. I have tried this test many times over the years and I always continue to pay attention when I play the CSR's of this album but my attention seems to wander after a while when listening to the Polygram or Denon. The CSR just seems to be more detailed and more "real."

    In around 1987, MFSL did their own digital mastering of this album and manufactured its gold CD. Although not too many people know this, there are two different matrices for these "Ultradisc I" CD's of Crime Of The Century. The earlier one has the matrix in the typical "dot matrix" font used by Denon Japan CD plant around this time period. The later one has the typical tiny "Ultech" matrix that you see on many 80's MFSL gold CD's (e.g., Pink Floyd Dark Side Of The Moon made in Japan). It appears that Ultech was either a corporate affiliate of Denon Japan or Ultech's equipment was purchased from Denon Japan or Denon Japan created the glass master for Ultech at the very beginning.

    Anyway, both of these MFSL CD's manufactured in Japan sound the same as each other but different from the CSR, Polygram and Denon A&M CD's. The MFSL CD was mastered at a lower volume with more dynamic range (and therefore, you should raise the volume most of the time when volume matching against the early A&M CD's), with what I think was some form of noise reduction. This gives the sound stage of the MFSL CD a "dark" background. There may be some reduction of "echo" as well. Whatever EQ'ing MFSL did, the resulting sound is the audiophiley, refined sound with the drums and piano sounding a bit artificial (meaning less like a percussion instrument). Overall, I really enjoy the MFSL Japan CD's, however, and I play them almost as much as I play the CSR's.

    Some years later MFSL reissued this CD with as part of the "Ultradisc II" series with the disc now manufactured in the US. I am not sure whether this CD is identical to the early Japan MFSL CD's but I sold it about a year ago.

    I don't think you can go wrong with any of these CD's but if you ask me to keep just one, it would be one of the CSR's, followed closely by the MFSL Japan CD.

    Whew, I think I have attempted to answer every question posed to me in the earlier posts. Good night! :wave:
     
  5. yescool2002

    yescool2002 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Miami
    Many times they find the "master" mix and also a box that shows "DO NOT USE" which is the real master.

    MFSL also used the real master for RUSH´s SIGNALS and the result was ... a missing vocal line on a song called THE WEAPON:
    Info on missing lyrics from MFSL version of Rush - Signals
     
  6. Tim1954

    Tim1954 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cincinnati, OH
    "Many times"?

    I thought that just happened to Steve Hoffman a couple of times.

    Anyway, I personally don't buy the idea that Ken Scott would have Ray Staff cut from the wrong tape when he did the original cut at CBS Classical. But then again I don't really care much about all of this guesswork as to why the MFSL CD sounds like it does. I care what sounds better to me. The MFSL CD is really thin compared to the vinyl copies I have. How either one got there just doesn't matter all that much in the end.
     
  7. Chooke

    Chooke Forum Resident

    Location:
    Perth, Australia
    That's an interesting observation. I got out my MSFL LP this morning to rekindle memories of how it sounds compared to the CD, cranked them up to equal volumes and sat down listening to both switching track by track.

    Both sound very nice. The CD has deeper and more powerful bone shaking bass, particularly on tracks such as "Bloody Well Right" but it is also more accurate, starting and stopping without overhang. The LP on the other hand has a more pervasive bass compared the more nuanced delivery of the CD, a trait I find is typical of LP masterings/playback. The pervasiveness does thicken the sound, which at first blush does give the impression that relatively, the CD sounds thinner but it also masks a fair bit of the nuances in the bottom end. The thicker sound suits many heavier rock genres but I don't believe COTC is one of them. The CD also has a better, more detailed top end which also can sound a bit edgy if one is used to a more rolled off response.

    I have yet to hear a bad version of this album. So basically what one prefers is subjective and to a degree, playback system dependent.

    Btw, interesting discussion on which master was used for which. The best master for the engineer to use would be the safe master but I doubt that this was the one used.
     
  8. Tim 2

    Tim 2 MORE MUSIC PLEASE

    Location:
    Alberta Canada
    Tommy's right, glad he reads what was written.
    "How are dynamics added artificially "have you ever heard of compression ? (The levelling of sound cycles ).
    You may want to pick-up Floyd Toole's - Sound Reproduction- for a better interpretation.
     
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  9. Strat-Mangler

    Strat-Mangler Personal Survival Daily Record-Breaker

    Location:
    Toronto
    @Scottb read this.
     
  10. Scottb

    Scottb Senior Member

    Location:
    Nanuet, NY, USA
    Thanks that was quite the read but very informative to say the least.
     
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  11. Scottb

    Scottb Senior Member

    Location:
    Nanuet, NY, USA
    I have on the way to me the single disc 2014 remaster from Amazon UK. This should be remastered by Ray Staff. However discogs lists Greg Calbi and Jay Messina who remastered the 2002 version not the 2014 version. Does anyone here have the 2014 single disc and does it say remastered by Ray Staff? Below is the link to discogs which I guess has inaccurate info.

    Supertramp - Crime Of The Century

    Thanks

    Scott
     
  12. Lucidae

    Lucidae AAD Thread Starter

    Location:
    Australia
    It's not uncommon for Discogs to mistakenly list previous credits, here is the entry for the 2CD edition which has the correct credits: Supertramp - Crime Of The Century
     
  13. Scottb

    Scottb Senior Member

    Location:
    Nanuet, NY, USA
    Great and thanks.
     
  14. Dam

    Dam Forum Resident

    Location:
    Australia
    Have you heard the 2014 remastered cd, princesskiki - and if so, would be interested to hear your opinion?!
     
  15. princesskiki

    princesskiki Kiki's Mom

    Hi. Sorry, but I stopped buying remasters a long time ago. My problem with them more than 90% of the time is the noise reduction. Even when they claim that they have not done so, more than 90% of the CD's mastered or remastered after the early 90's have been noise reduced to a certain degree. My problem with more than half of them is that the noise reduction (and then afterwards EQ'ing the top end to compensate) damages the sound between instruments ("room sound", if you will) and also alters the sound of certain instruments. I think they have been doing this so that each "new" reissue sounds "fresher" and therefore, the public will buy into yet another reissue of the same album.

    As your audio system gets better (and for us "audiophiles", I would imagine that our audio system will have a tendency to get better and not worse until we die), you may decide (as I have) that the "old" CD's cannot be beat as long as they were mastered well. Most of these recordings are pretty old now and the original master tapes have degenerated or been damaged to a certain degree. I think high resolution technology since the early 2000's makes up for the problem of age somewhat nut when that technology is coupled with noise reduction, it is just a wash for me.

    I am sure there are exceptions (and perhaps Crime Of The Century is one of them, I don't know), but I am not going to risk wasting more money to find out given the percentages. :wave:
     
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  16. Dam

    Dam Forum Resident

    Location:
    Australia
    Many thanks for your reply...
     
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  17. mikaal

    mikaal Sociopathic Nice Guy

    Silly question time: how do you know when nr has been applied?
    Bonus silly question: what's pre-emphasis?
     
  18. Chooke

    Chooke Forum Resident

    Location:
    Perth, Australia
    Often you can hear it, a sort of veiling of the higher frequencies. But many times what people claim is NR is just a poor recording.

    As for pre-emphasis, read on...

    Pre-emphasis - Hydrogenaudio Knowledgebase
     
  19. mikaal

    mikaal Sociopathic Nice Guy

    Thanks Chooke!
     
  20. JulesRules

    JulesRules Weaponized, Deranged Warthog Thug

    Location:
    Germany
    You could look for samples or search around for somebody who has the Ray Staff remaster, no? :shrug:
     
  21. mrob0000

    mrob0000 Forum Resident

    We really need Mobile Fidelity to have another go at this one. I'm set really, as I have the Mobile Fidelity UHQR LP of this title and it is freakin' amazing. But it sure would be nice to have a no-holds-barred uncompressed un-de-noised digital rendering done by Mobile Fidelity. They could do it right once and for all...
     
    Darren Richardson likes this.
  22. Strat-Mangler

    Strat-Mangler Personal Survival Daily Record-Breaker

    Location:
    Toronto
    There was a Platinum SHM-CD scheduled to be released last year with a complete flat transfer but was canceled.
     
  23. Lucidae

    Lucidae AAD Thread Starter

    Location:
    Australia
    Actually there was also a SHM-SACD pre-order, and I was heartbroken when it was cancelled. Since the deluxe edition remaster of CotC came out around the same time that is likely the reason.
     
  24. enfield

    enfield Forum Resident

    Location:
    Essex UK
    Is the standard 2014 album the same master as the 2014 deluxe edition?..Many thanks.
     
  25. Lucidae

    Lucidae AAD Thread Starter

    Location:
    Australia
    Same master, whether it's the stand-alone CD, the deluxe edition or the Blu-ray Audio.
     
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