Supertramp "Crime of the Century" - mastering comparison & discussion *

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Lucidae, May 21, 2015.

  1. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your Host Your Host


    sorry for the caps.
  2. jeddy

    jeddy Forum Resident

    Blue Ray all the way on this one guys
    best digital version to these ears
    and perhaps as good as the vinyl.
  3. Use_Your_Koala

    Use_Your_Koala Forum Resident

    Oh yeah, I got it, search engine concerns. No need for the caps lock.

    Still think your original condescending remark towards the OP wasn't necessary. He took the time to upload samples as useful comparison tools, only to be answered a snarky remark about his thread title? "Oh, come on", indeed.
    JulesRules and Tommy SB like this.
  4. jeddy

    jeddy Forum Resident

    I think Crime of the Century
    would make a great name for a band.

    ....not as good as Teenage Grand Finale .....mind you...
  5. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your Host Your Host

    I've been harping on this constantly since 2002 here. If someone is going to go to the trouble of creating a great thread, why skimp on the actual title that will draw people in? Not just us geeks here, but search engine people all over the world. Seems so simple to me yet everyday there are so many threads that have weak headings that need fixing it drives the moderators nuts. Over and out.
  6. hbbfam

    hbbfam Forum Resident

    In comparing the MFSL CD with the 40th Anniversary, the MFSL wins hands down to me. More range, deeper base and warmer at the same time. While the 40th is not loud, it definitely sounds compressed to me.C

    The question for me: is the BR audio an improvement over the MFSL CD?
    SteveS1 likes this.
  7. Tim1954

    Tim1954 Forum Resident

    Cincinnati, OH
    I'm somewhat amazed that anyone could think the MFSL CD has "deep bass" but I suppose it all comes down to what versions you have experienced.

    Compared to the vinyl copies I've heard, that MFSL CD sounds quite anemic.

    A member in this thread ( actually did an EQ chart showing how the MFSL CD is EQ'd compared to the UK LP with "Allen" in the deadwax. This is how you would have to EQ that LP to equal the MFSL CD.

    "Bloody Well Right"

    AlanDistro, ledsox and Lucidae like this.
  8. SteveS1

    SteveS1 Forum Resident

    Weald, England, UK
    Yes I'm glad I got the 40th for the live version, but the MFSL CD has much more range to my ears. Doesn't sound at all anaemic.
    wayneklein likes this.
  9. Tim1954

    Tim1954 Forum Resident

    Cincinnati, OH
    I haven't heard the 40th, but where the MFSL sounds wimpy is in comparison to the way this album sounds on vinyl.

    Now, why that is, I suppose can't know. We have Ken Scott praising how the original LP was cut by Ray Staff at the CBS Classical division. And mentioning that he feels the sound of the album went downhill from there. And we know that the MFSL CD has a huge amount of treble that isn't present on that LP or perhaps any LP version. And we know that the MFSL has quite a bit less bass than the album originally had on vinyl.

    I think the MFSL CD gets a score of 15 on DR Meter, whereas I believe that the original LP gets a score of like 12. So, yes, the MFSL is a little more dynamic, but with all of that extra treble I'm not sure if that would increase its DR score, and the original LP is very dynamic. I suppose the argument that the MFSL CD is displaying the album's true dynamic range is quite possible, but why all of that HUGE treble increase and less bass? We're talking about a boost from about 5k-12k that is just awful. And when played next to a good vinyl cut, the MFSL CD sounds downright thin and as if something went wrong in the tape transfer. Tape playback incorrect?
    kacperk83 and Lucidae like this.
  10. SteveS1

    SteveS1 Forum Resident

    Weald, England, UK
    I don't hear any problem with the treble on this. At a push, I sort of 'get' the criticism of being so dynamic that some have issues with volume change. But being told a CD is too dynamic is, to me, like being told you look a bit too much like Brad Pitt. I'll live with it. :)

    Supertramp/Crime Of The Century [MFSL Ultradisc]
    DR Peak RMS Filename

    DR16 -3.59 dB -24.38 dB 01 School.aif
    DR17 -6.22 dB -25.57 dB 02 Bloody Well Right.aif
    DR17 -1.88 dB -23.02 dB 03 Hide In Your Shell.aif
    DR16 -3.25 dB -24.34 dB 04 Asylum.aif
    DR14 -5.04 dB -24.70 dB 05 Dreamer.aif
    DR16 -4.68 dB -26.01 dB 06 Rudy.aif
    DR17 -3.08 dB -26.15 dB 07 If Everyone Was Listening.aif
    DR16 -4.76 dB -24.61 dB 08 Crime Of The Century.aif

    Number of files: 8
    Official DR value: DR16
    George P likes this.
  11. BKphoto

    BKphoto JazzAllDay

    I have the 1/2 speed Audiophile Series of this and Breakfast and think they are both really good..
    monte4 likes this.
  12. testikoff

    testikoff Forum Resident

    FWIW, here is the spectrum comparison of the posted Asylum samples (vs CotC MFSL CD; all tracks at equal perceived loudness):

    - spectrum graphs & deltas:

    - spectrum deltas (closeup):

    Last edited: Jun 14, 2015
  13. JulesRules

    JulesRules Forum Resident

    It probably is, but I'm not sure if it's worth buying. For once it has a better EQ than the 40th anniversary (which exists as a single CD and Deluxe with the live album) but the compression is too much, many of the tracks score a DR 8...
    I've got all the 2002 remasters from Crime... up to Brother Where You Bound with the exception of Paris. Brother Where You Bound is probably the best of the bunch.
  14. JulesRules

    JulesRules Forum Resident

    I'm not at all surprised at that, having just come across an old eclipsed magazine where he talked about David Bowie's Ziggy Stardust album (which he'd also produced). He was asked how much he was involved with the anniversary edition, and he said that his involvement wasn't that great, but he suggested the label to ask Ray Staff to do the mastering, as he'd been the original mastering engineer.
    Ken Scott: 'He's still got amazingly sensitive ears. The new remaster, especially on vinyl, is by far the best and most true to the original* version of "Ziggy".'

    (*the interview was translated to German so this formulation may not be entirely accurate. But I think you get the general sense of what he was saying.)
  15. Majestyk

    Majestyk Rush Resident

    I completely agree. The COTC MFSL CD love-fest eludes me. The MFSL CD is the first COTC I ever heard in my adults years. I had nothing to compare it to. Yet, I was shocked on how bad it sounded. I thought maybe the Ultradisc II would be better but it was the same. Everything sounded so closed in, there was no depth. On a couple tracks the percussion is way too hot sounding. I thought to myself... Man if this is the benchmark, then how am I going to listen to this fantastic album?

    Then a friend generously gave me a needledrop of the Speakers Corner vinyl. WOW! I was blown away. It was a night and day difference. Still, for me, the SC is not the best...I find the bass too bloated. I since heard the Original UK Vinyl and it slaughters everything out there. Oddly, I've also recently heard other UK Vinyl's and they didn't sound anywhere near as good, so it's inconsistent.

  16. Chooke

    Chooke Forum Resident

    Perth, Australia
    My order of preference for COTC:
    1. HD Tracks remaster
    2. MFSL CD
    3. Original UK vinyl

    Haven't heard the earlier CD or the later vinyl. I like the clarity of the MFSL CD but it is a bit too smiley faced which makes if a bit wearing after a while.

    What master was used for the HD Tracks release?
  17. DeRosa

    DeRosa Forum Resident

    How all those records will sound also depends on what record player you have, that's a HUGE variable.
    Personally, i think all versions of this album can sound fantastic, just need good playback gear.
  18. yescool2002

    yescool2002 Forum Resident

    I believe there was a 1997 remaster for Europe, and a 200 remaster for the US.
    They both sound heavily compressed, and most tracks peak at 100 percent
    JulesRules likes this.
  19. Vinylfindco

    Vinylfindco Forum Resident

    Keep in mind that the vinyl was a big seller for MFSL, and there are at least two if not more versions of the standard (non UHQR) issue. I did read once that there is a preferred stamper, though I don't know which it is. Can anyone confirm this?
  20. Gordon Johnson

    Gordon Johnson Forum Resident

    Liverpool, South
    Thanks chaps.
    My UK is AMLS 68258 A 7 and AMLS68258 B 9 ALLEN.

    Been wondering if the recent re pressing is worth picking up as my original has seen better days. Far from unplayable it would still be nice to hear a cleaner copy.

    So without me reading thru' the whole thread, is the new edition close to the UK pressing?
  21. Lucidae

    Lucidae Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Same as the 40th anniversary edition on CD and LP.
    Chooke likes this.
  22. Post #11 may help.
  23. Gordon Johnson

    Gordon Johnson Forum Resident

    Liverpool, South
    Ta very much HV
    Hail Vinyl! likes this.
  24. hotsoup

    hotsoup Forum Resident

    WA (USA)
    I have a strange feeling that all these nuances being discussed will ultimately come down to hardware (speaker, room) differences. The only truly disappointing version of this that I've ever had was the 2002 remaster.
    JulesRules, Chooke and DeRosa like this.
  25. hazard

    hazard Forum Resident

    Supertramp is my wife's favourite band so last night i played Crime blu ray. How was that? I asked. Better than the CD she said. Then i played the Canadian A&M half speed master. How was that? I asked? Much better than the blu ray she said.

    I've just bought a UK pressing on-line. I don't know the matrix so i'm hoping its A5 B5.
    monte4 likes this.

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