Supertramp "Crime of the Century" - mastering comparison & discussion *

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Lucidae, May 21, 2015.

  1. Jrr

    Jrr Forum Resident

    Good points. We all have to remember most of music, whether the music itself or the way it sounds, is pretty darn subjective. We can basically agree if something sounds good in general or if it's generally bad, but from there it starts getting fuzzy. Just look at any "what's the best pressing" thread and you really see it! And for the most part, no one's wrong! And them pretty much all of us have different rigs, so you throw that in the mix and now no one is even hearing it the same way! But it's still fun.
     
  2. Lucidae

    Lucidae Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Australia
    The Mofi is more dynamic than any other version, including the original vinyl. I love dynamics as much as the next person, but more doesn't always mean better.
     
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  3. sonci

    sonci Active Member

    Location:
    Albania
    Even if you are alone in a cave with no kids, wife or neighbours, listening at the right volume for the quiet passages is really too much when the piano jam comes in, if you have normal hearing,
    and its uncomfortable especially if you use a remoteless amplifier
     
  4. Espen R

    Espen R Forum Resident

    Location:
    Norway
    Yes, it is more dynamic than any other version.

    OMG, I love me MFSL Gold CD. It is amazing sounding, and I've said it a thousand times before.

    It's like listening to The Master! It is also the cleanest and most transparent version I've heard. Is it becsuse it is free from any form of compression it is so clean? Why has this mster tape only been used once in history? (Correct me if I'm wrong)
     
  5. vinylkid58

    vinylkid58 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Victoria, B.C.
    The Mofi in my system is "less" dynamic that the original pressings, and sounds slightly compressed. It is definitely quieter thou. I just realized you guys are talking about the Gold CD, not the original vinyl.

    jeff
     
    Mitsuman likes this.
  6. JulesRules

    JulesRules Forum Resident

    Location:
    Germany
    If I'm not mistaken, it comes from a different (earlier) tape that wasn't intended for the released LP.
     
  7. JulesRules

    JulesRules Forum Resident

    Location:
    Germany
    Yeah, I wouldn't recommend the 2002 remastering. I don't consider myself an audiophile but the loudest parts have been limited and you get that 'wall-of-sound' effect in the most dramatic parts of "Hide in Your Shell" or "Dreamer". Personally, I'm happy with the recent Ray Staff remaster which, according to pretty much every forum member, isn't as dynamic as the MFSL (which I haven't heard), but I don't sit there listening and thinking "I wish this CD was more dynamic". The dynamics are a big part of the album's sound but I think the 2014 CD has enough of them. YMMV, and all that.
     
  8. Espen R

    Espen R Forum Resident

    Location:
    Norway
    Yes, it sounds like it is THE original 2ch mix down tape.
     
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  9. dividebytube

    dividebytube Forum Resident

    Location:
    Grand Rapids, MI
    Just a brief note - I've owned the MFSL, UK, and American pressings of this on vinyl.

    The US pressing is the most dynamic of them all but overall I prefer the British copy over it for smoothness and detail. The US is touch "edgier".

    The MFSL didn't stay long in my collection - it seemed a little strident/artificial. It's been years though since I've heard that version so my memory of it could be off. I would like to hear it again on a good setup (my current stereo system is a far cry compared to what I used to have).
     
  10. Yost

    Yost Forum Resident

    Currently there's no listing for the MFSL vinyl in the DR Database. The MFSL CD is listed, and is the most dynamic mastering of them all. Even more dynamic than the original vinyl.

    The MFSL CD doesn't sound artificial to my ears, but it *does* sound very analytical. The same is the case with the black triangle Notorious CD by Duran Duran, BTW. Which is also unearthy dynamic for a pop music release.
     
    SinnerSaint likes this.
  11. Lucidae

    Lucidae Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Australia
    My thoughts exactly, glad I'm not the only one.
     
  12. AlanDistro

    AlanDistro Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sandy, OR
    Thanks for this, I just ripped a second FLAC copy of my MFSL CD and applied the opposite of this EQ and it really fixed the lack of bass/excessive highs. Much more enjoyable listen. I'll keep the original in my library for archival purposes, but this re-EQ'ed version is now my go-to (I searched for this thread after buying the BluRay HFPA disc earlier this week and not being 100% happy with the sound of it or the MFSL CD).
     
    Gordon Johnson likes this.
  13. Bill Mac

    Bill Mac Forum Resident

    Location:
    So. ME USA
    Not to many thoughts on the COTC Blu-ray Audio. I was thinking of grabbing the Blu-ray before it goes OOP. Anyone compare the Blu-ray to the MFSL?
     
  14. Jrr

    Jrr Forum Resident

    I don't have it, but it's hard to imagine it would be anything less than amazing. Have any of us ever heard an actual "bad" version of this album? Even the domestic A&M orginal vinyl, while usually noisy, still sounds great. I would certainly grab one if I did music that way. A top 3 album for me in all ways. By the way, I finally got an amazing copy of Even In The Quietest Moments on vinyl, an album I always felt was a bit thin sounding even though Ken recorded it as well. I even have the A&M audiophile version out of Canada, and it wasn't that great either. A forum member put one up for sale here and swore by the amazing sound, and he was right. I have purchased at least ten versions of this album and always thought it likely was recorded better than it sounded. Guess what...it is! Not COTC sound, but it's very nice and I noticed a lot of small nuances I never noticed before.
     
  15. fpas

    fpas Well-Known Member

    Can you please enlighten us and share which version that is, maybe with the corresponding Discogs link? Would love to get good sounding version of that album. Thanks.
     
  16. Jrr

    Jrr Forum Resident

    For free...really? Oh, I forgot...this isn't the Better Records web site!

    Side 1: T1 AMSP5005 CRC T2
    Side 2: T1 AMSP5006 -T3

    This is clearly rare...I've never seen one. Can anyone explain the matrix numbers?

    Note: the T1 at the beginning of the prefix is a good inch away from the rest of the numbers, before they start on both sides, so it may not mean anything. I hope you get a cleaner copy. Mine is just full of pops and clicks, and I never would have stood for that from a forum member, but it is such a step up that I kept it and it's my go to copy now despite the defects from not being well cared for. I need to hunt down a good copy. I've been looking at my local stores but so far none have these matrix numbers. Good luck!
     
    fpas likes this.
  17. Lucidae

    Lucidae Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Australia
    I'd like to draw attention to something... the different editions of the remaster are technically not identical masterings. Compare these DR reports for the CD, the Blu-ray and the hi-res digital download; note how the peak values do not match up. From these figures it appears the Blu-ray has been normalized (mastering error?), while the hi-res download seems to have a few clipped samples. The CD doesn't look like it has either of these problems, and may be the version to get. I'm by no means an expert in this subject, so I hope others can weigh in.

    Code:
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
     Analyzed: Supertramp - Crime of the Century (deluxe edition)
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
     DR          Peak            RMS           Filename
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
     DR12      -0.28 dB     -16.82 dB     01 Supertramp - School.wav
     DR15      -0.29 dB     -17.10 dB     02 Supertramp - Bloody Well Right.wav
     DR12      -0.27 dB     -15.60 dB     03 Supertramp - Hide in Your Shell.wav
     DR12      -0.28 dB     -16.88 dB     04 Supertramp - Asylum.wav
     DR11      -0.28 dB     -16.51 dB     05 Supertramp - Dreamer.wav
     DR13      -0.35 dB     -18.73 dB     06 Supertramp - Rudy.wav
     DR14      -0.29 dB     -19.27 dB     07 Supertramp - If Everyone Was Listening.wav
     DR13      -0.30 dB     -17.45 dB     08 Supertramp - Crime of the Century.wav
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
     Number of files:    8
     Official DR value:  DR13
    
    ==============================================================================================
    Code:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Analyzed: Supertramp - Crime Of The Century (blu-ray audio)
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    DR         Peak         RMS     Duration Track
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    DR12      -0.30 dB   -16.85 dB      5:38 01-School
    DR15      -0.30 dB   -17.09 dB      4:32 02-Bloody Well Right
    DR12      -0.30 dB   -15.60 dB      6:50 03-Hide In Your Shell
    DR12      -0.30 dB   -16.84 dB      6:47 04-Asylum
    DR11      -0.30 dB   -16.57 dB      3:33 05-Dreamer
    DR13      -0.30 dB   -18.72 dB      7:21 06-Rudy
    DR14      -0.30 dB   -19.26 dB      4:06 07-If Everyone Was Listening
    DR13      -0.30 dB   -17.44 dB      5:33 08-Crime Of The Century
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    Number of tracks:  8
    Official DR value: DR13
    
    Samplerate:        192000 Hz
    Channels:          2
    Bits per sample:   24
    Bitrate:           5693 kbps
    Codec:             FLAC
    ================================================================================
    
    
    Code:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Analyzed: Supertramp - Crime of the Century (24-96 digital download)
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    DR         Peak         RMS     Duration Track
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    DR12      -0.01 dB   -16.81 dB      5:35 01-School
    DR15       0.00 dB   -17.10 dB      4:32 02-Bloody Well Right
    DR12       0.00 dB   -15.60 dB      6:50 03-Hide in Your Shell
    DR12       0.00 dB   -16.88 dB      6:50 04-Asylum
    DR12      -0.12 dB   -16.57 dB      3:33 05-Dreamer
    DR13      -0.26 dB   -18.72 dB      7:21 06-Rudy
    DR14      -0.15 dB   -19.26 dB      4:06 07-If Everyone Was Listening
    DR13      -0.18 dB   -17.44 dB      5:33 08-Crime of the Century
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    Number of tracks:  8
    Official DR value: DR13
    
    Samplerate:        96000 Hz
    Channels:          2
    Bits per sample:   24
    Bitrate:           2956 kbps
    Codec:             FLAC
    ================================================================================
    
    
     
  18. tmsorosk

    tmsorosk Forum Resident

    Location:
    Alberta Canada
    I would agree, dynamics aren't everything, or even the most important thing.
     
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  19. MaxxMaxx4

    MaxxMaxx4 Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Winnipeg Canada
    Dynamics are for people that want to impress there friends,for me i'll take detail and subtlety
     
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  20. Jrr

    Jrr Forum Resident

    They aren't everything but for this album, I would argue that on a good system they are quite important indeed! This is a very dynamic album by design. I think the better the system, the more clear that becomes and I think it's great folks are making sure they get the right one. For casual listening, I agree with you.
     
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  21. Chooke

    Chooke Forum Resident

    Location:
    Perth, Australia
    I prefer the mofi CD, but it does need to be cranked up to fully appreciate it.
     
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  22. fpas

    fpas Well-Known Member

    I see a few versions that come close to the dead wax descriptions, but no exact match. Very curious indeed... the plot thickens...
     
    Jrr likes this.
  23. tmsorosk

    tmsorosk Forum Resident

    Location:
    Alberta Canada
    On a good, no very good system dynamics are irrelevant.
    Music should exist in a space with it's own natural unforced dynamics.
    If a system sounds dynamic it's not natural.
    imo
     
  24. Jrr

    Jrr Forum Resident

    Perhaps (and I used to own a recording studio so my opinion may be way too biased...we could be full of ourselves!)....I can tell you that I think with this particular title, meaning this probably doesn't apply to most other recordings, Ken Scott was making the dynamics part of the process, like another instrument as if he was part of the band. I think that's quite unusual, and one of the reasons this album is so well loved by the audiophile community. It is no accident that the dynamics are all over the map (and in a good way imo as he knew what he was doing, and clearly had a vision for how it should sound) and that the other Supertramp albums are not engineered like this. Ken has his fingerprints all over it...Breakfast in America sounds nothing like it (and yet, another amazing album but for other reasons imo). Ken was very disappointed he wasn't asked to do that one. And you are so right, but maybe not in the way you intended. That certainly isn't the way that album would have sounded when played live! The post production work is ridiculous; A&M was so happy with how it was coming out they told Ken he could take his time. So, I agree with you but I think this title is purposely an exception.
     
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  25. Jrr

    Jrr Forum Resident

    Don't give up! I looked on Discogs right after I got this as I am dying for a quiet copy. I saw the same thing...close, but I'm assuming close isn't going to get it done! I have pruchased a ton of these and that is the only one that sounds the way I suspected it should have all along. Why they don't remaster this and release it again on vinyl is a mystery to me. Clearly it was well recorded, but they lost it in the mastering except for that one run.
     

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