Supertramp "Crime of the Century" - mastering comparison & discussion *

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Lucidae, May 21, 2015.

  1. Jrr

    Jrr Forum Resident

    They are well known for using only master tapes. But when they can't get the master, they label it "Silver Series", and I do have some Silver Series albums that still sound fine, but some that don't and clearly are not from the master. Crime is advertised as from the master, and it certainly sounds it to me. So, there is protocol for them to use when not using the master. I really doubt they would tarnish their repuation by trying to fool us. And with this forum, good luck with that!
     
  2. marcb

    marcb Senior Member

    Location:
    DC area
    EQ can impact the DR ratings.
     
  3. marcb

    marcb Senior Member

    Location:
    DC area
    That's the more recent iteration of MFSL. They didn't do this in previous iterations when the definition of the "master" could be a little loose.

    As I said, I've never heard the MFSL CD so I no opinion per se on whether or not the master was used.
     
  4. Jrr

    Jrr Forum Resident

    I was speaking to how hard it is to make a vinyl master from a tape with tremendous dynamic range, not the recording process itself. Sorry for the confusion.
     
  5. Jrr

    Jrr Forum Resident

    Sure!! But I don't think to the extend we hear on COTC.
     
  6. Chooke

    Chooke Forum Resident

    Location:
    Perth, Australia
    It doesn't even measure dynamic range. The DR database is a useful tool, albeit a blunt one, to sort out the really bad masterings but it is not definitive. There are many releases that sound better with a lower DR rating than a higher one. The DR meter tells little to nothing about the appropriateness of the EQ, the clarity of the recording, the noise level (which masks detail) and so on. Another common mistake some make is comparing the DR levels of vinyl to digital, they are not comparable due mainly to the spikier waveforms of vinyl playback.

    There is a good discussion of this in the thread below, and IIRC, in the SHF.

    Understanding the parameters in the dynamic range database

    Why you can't measure vinyl with the TT Meter - Production Advice
     
    Lucidae likes this.
  7. Tim1954

    Tim1954 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cincinnati, OH
    I've owned the MFSL LP.

    IMO, it's not as good as the original UK mastered by Ray Staff at Trident and cut at CBS Classical.

    I also prefer second UK edition mastered by Allen Landau.
     
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  8. Tim1954

    Tim1954 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cincinnati, OH
    You're confusing modern MFSL with old MFSL.
     
  9. Bill Mac

    Bill Mac Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    Vinyl? Are there different versions of the COTC MFSL CD?
     
  10. marcb

    marcb Senior Member

    Location:
    DC area
    Huh? He was responding to a post that was claiming that MSFL uses a different designation for product that doesn't come from the master tape - and because this designation wasn't used with the gold CD, it must have come from the master tape. However - as I also pointed out - this is only true for the more recent iteration of MFSL. This was not true when the MFSL gold CD was produced (nor was it true when the MFSL vinyl was pressed).

    So whether the MFSL gold CD came from THE master tape is uncertain and open to conjecture.
     
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  11. Bill Mac

    Bill Mac Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    Just asking a simple question. In the post Tim1954 said "modern MFSL with old MFSL" with no reference to vinyl or CD. So are there two versions of the COTC MFSL CD or just the one? Again a very simple question that didn't require the "Huh?".
     
  12. marcb

    marcb Senior Member

    Location:
    DC area
    "MFSL" refers to the company. "The MFSL" refers to a CD or LP by MFSL.

    There have been 2 different iterations of MFSL that shared the same name and look. And it's one odd instance where the new iteration is probably superior to the original.
     
  13. Bill Mac

    Bill Mac Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    I'm well aware of what MFSL is. If someone says "The MFSL" one doesn't know if they mean CD or LP. If you are referring to "MOFI" as the new iteration there isn't a COTC CD from MOFI. Or do you mean MFSL Ultra I and Ultra II?
     
  14. marcb

    marcb Senior Member

    Location:
    DC area
    You're overthinking this. The old incarnation of MFSL (the company) released a Gold CD (and a vinyl LP but that's irrelevant). That's it for MFSL (the company) doing COTC.

    Jrr writes that because the gold CD doesn't use the booklet cover banner used by MFSL (the company) which indicates it was not from the master tape, therefore the gold CD must have come from the master tape.

    Tim1954 and I both indicate that only the new incarnation of MFSL (the company) uses different banners on the booklet cover to distinguish whether the master tape was or was not used. However the MFSL gold CD was released by the old incarnation of MFSL (the company).

    Therefore one can't draw any conclusion from the banner about whether the MFSL gold CD was sourced from the master tape .

    That's it.
     
    Tim1954 likes this.
  15. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    It was, let's move on.
     
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  16. JulesRules

    JulesRules Weaponized, Deranged Warthog Thug

    Location:
    Germany
    I thought Ken Scott said it wasn't?
     
  17. Juan Matus

    Juan Matus Reformed Audiophile

    @marcb are you talking about the MFSL CD UDCD 505? It is designated something called an Ultradisc on the back. This is what MFSL says about such a designation. "Ultradiscs are mastered from the original master tapes using Mobile Fidelity's proprietary mastering technique, then plated with 24 karat gold and housed in a stress-resistant lift-lock jewel box."

    Doesn't seem to be open to conjecture unless you consider MFSL untrustworthy.
     
  18. Endymion

    Endymion Forum Resident

    Location:
    Germany
    OTOH Roger Hodgson said in an interview for the german magazine "Eclipsed" that the original master tape was used for the first time for the 40th anniversary edition.

    So either Ken Scott and Roger Hodgson are wrong or MFSL and Steve Hoffman. ;-)
     
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  19. mikaal

    mikaal Sociopathic Nice Guy

    Good grief :shrug:.

    Don't lose sight of the music. Listen to the music!
     
    Yost likes this.
  20. Juan Matus

    Juan Matus Reformed Audiophile

    Well they can't all be right!
     
  21. Bill Mac

    Bill Mac Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    I'm not over thinking anything. But it's obvious you are. Once again I'll repeat that my only question was were there two different versions of the COTC MFSL CD. That's it no more no less. You answered that above. Which you could have done with a simple response from my post (#184). I never once asked a question about the mastering of the CD or anything regarding the cover banner. What you did was post three condescending posts waxing on about nothing in regard to my original question (other that the first portion of this post).
     
  22. JulesRules

    JulesRules Weaponized, Deranged Warthog Thug

    Location:
    Germany
    Yes, I think I was the one who originally posted that information. And I'm sure I recall somebody saying that the MFSL CD was taken from a pre-production tape, so in theory even "closer"to the original recording, but not exactly what the band and Ken intended it to sound like. This isn't verified I guess but it would explain some things.
     
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  23. Yost

    Yost “It’s only impossible until it’s not”

    Yes, there are 2 versions of the MFSL CD:
    Ultradisc, 1988: Supertramp - Crime Of The Century
    Ultradisc II, 1993: Supertramp - Crime Of The Century

    Before those, MFSL also released an LP and a cassette (both in 1978).
     
    Bill Mac likes this.
  24. Bill Mac

    Bill Mac Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    Not correct. As Yost points out in his post there was also a MFSL cassette as well as two versions of the Gold CD.
    Supertramp - Crime Of The Century

    Thank you for posting this information :)! I had time today to check the two copies of the COTC MFSL CD that I have. Well it turns out there are two versions as you pointed out. One of the MFSL CDs is made in Japan and one in the USA. The CD from Japan is an "Ultradisc" and the one from the USA is an "UltradiscII". The CD from Japan does not have a UPC code where the CD from the USA has a UPC code 15775 15052 2. I wonder if they have the same mastering? They probably do but when I get a chance I'll do a comparison of the two. I should have checked the two CDs earlier and would have answered my own question :).
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2017
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  25. Tim1954

    Tim1954 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cincinnati, OH
    I don't think one has to consider MFSL "untrustworthy" at all.

    But come on, there are definitely cases from the old days where they absolutely did not have the master tape. This may not be one, but if they had the master then they screwed it up anyway, IMO, so I find it somewhat irrelevant. I think we can assume the original LP mastered by Ray Staff at Trident in London came from the master. If that's the same source tape as MFSL, congrats to Ray Staff however he got the album to sound like he did, because it makes the MFSL CD sound like an AM radio broadcast.

    Things are somewhat different as they exist now, but I often found MFSL to be quite evasive about details back in the day. They could talk for days about equipment or cutting heads or quiet vinyl processes or whatever, but mention of mastering engineers, details about tapes used and the like was rarely forthcoming.

    Btw, I like MFSL and own quite a good number of their releases.
     

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