Surround music R.I.P.

I totally agree. When listening to 4.0 quad in my room there is no hole in the soundstage. I recently listened to The Jeff Beck Group's Audio Fidelity SACD and was blown away. It was like being in a bubble of sound that couldn't be duplicated by two speakers in stereo.

 

There was never any standardized configuration adopted for 4.0/4.1 like there was with 5.1 and 7.1. When quad was originally marketed in the 1970s, the configuration you're describing (4 speakers 90 degrees apart) was the most commonly pushed in advertisement literature. The diamond configuration was also commonly pushed, but both configurations are incorrect. The correct setup for 4.0 is having the front speakers at about +/- 30 degrees and the rear speakers at about +/- 90-95 degrees. I personally keep my rear speakers at about +/- 95 degrees.

Your description of 5.1 is spot on.

What a couple other members fail to understand is that like 4.0/4.1, there is also no standardized configuration for 6.0/6.1. The configuration I was referring to is very close to what you described - the standard 7.1 setup minus the center channel and subwoofer (just like how 4.0 is commonly understood as the standard 5.1 setup minus the center channel and subwoofer). Two minor exceptions though: the side speakers should be at exactly +/- 90 degrees (not slightly rearward), and I would try to avoid putting any speakers in corners.

I would not hesitate to use the distance adjustment function on my disc player if I were in a situation where I couldn't get all the speakers equidistant from the listening position. But that would really only be a last resort. In every configuration, the speakers should ideally all be equidistant from the listening position.

 

You can't. 4.0/5.1 is a compromise that tricks your brain into believing there's a complete 360 degree soundstage when there is really only about a 180 degree soundstage. You have to sit almost perfectly still in order to maintain that illusion. 6.0/7.1 eliminates that compromise and actually creates the full 360 degree soundstage.

Why do you think 7.1 exists? That's not a rhetorical question.

Why do I need to have a certain set up in my living space at this current point in time in order to discuss how great that particular setup sounds?

 

Surround is fun, no doubt, but much harder to set up "properly" than a 2-channel. People have so much difficulty setting up a 2-channel systems perfectly, so I can just imagine how difficult 4.0, 5.1,6.1 or 7.1 must be for them. I've gone into lots of friends homes and tried to calibrate their systems for them. No one has speakers positioned properly and no one seems to understand the importance of setting speaker distances and speaker sound levels when the speakers are placed willy-nilly around the room, which is what I spend most of my time doing for them since they refuse to locate the speakers in the "ideal" placements. I also think back on so many posts where people are struggling with speaker placement for 2-channel systems so I can just imagine how difficult multi-speaker placement must be for the masses. The bottom line do your best with what your room, wife, and pocket book allows and enjoy. Now back to the original question posed in this Post, Yes I believe Audio Surround systems are on their way out, but that is until a new format/technology comes into play that will more likely incorporate streaming and some sort of a more sophisticated processor. Basic surround systems for home TV will still be popular but the trend will be for sound bars with some sort of a processor that gives the illusion of rear and side channels. The majority of people will love and live with tiny surround speakers and a subwoofer that are placed all over the room in various convenient locations and never give much thought to setting speaker distances or matching speaker sound levels as long as the center channel where the dialogue resides is clearly heard over the other support speakers. Those with audiophile processors and full range speakers set up properly are a true minority.

 

I agree totally with your insightful thoughts! I went over a friends house years ago and the surround setup was a flippin' nightmare ! The center channel output was coming from the back of the room and the speakers were not even remotely located properly. My neighbor has his sub set so high it sounds like a house will come off the foundation when watching an NFL game .

It is difficult to setup a surround system unless one has a dedicated room IMO. I don't have that and did the best job possible with what my room will allow. I'm sure a professional calibrator could dial in the system better but that gets expensive. I'm happy with the SQ as it is and if there are changes in components or speakers and or their location the calibration needs to be redone. I'm to the point where it's much more enjoyable to sit down and enjoy the music (stereo or surround) than to obsess about what it could be .

 

Amoeba still has a section devoted to DVD-Audio and SACD ???? I GOT to get to Cali !

 

I agree that surround is harder to set up perfectly, but I also think surround is more forgiving of less than ideal circumstances. Given that you can set distance and levels per speaker- and also the fact that surround excels at many of the aspects a 2.0 system has to approach perfect set-up to supply (e'g' soundstage width/depth; more clarity from more room for each instrument; etc.).

But one still needs to know and perform the basics. Not a prob for us here. And I imagine we have all helped (or tried to) some of those ignorant of the basics.

I think at some point in the future, speakers (and everything) will be wireless and blend in with the decor, so a standardized placement will appear that is as much about decor as it is proper placement, but will bring proper surround to the masses.

Too bad surround music will be long-dead and buried by then...

 

Parasound is still making one without the video inputs. It has both balanced and unbalanced outputs, but only L&R balanced inputs.

Model Halo P 7 « Parasound

 

Same here. It really was a "fad", and all those Surround Titles of "your favorite albums" never materialized.

 

SACD vs DVD-A screwed everything up.

 

Yeah, it's only lasted a half century.

 

With the Oppo, you can either (a) pass SACD as a DSD signal, but my Datasat unit will not handle the DSD signal or (b) pass SACD or DVD-A as PCM via an HDMI output (in the case of DVD-A, I think it passes it as redbook, but I'm not sure). I'm not thrilled about going through the effort -- and it will be a fair amount of effort in my setup, unfortunately -- to get multi-channel that is neither true DSD nor hi rez PCM. I'll continue to focus in my system on stereo DSD and hi rez PCM (including redbook that has been upsampled to DXD). If I need a dose of surround, I can watch a concert on Blu Ray.

 

Oppo players do not pass DVD-A as redbook at least not in my system. The "DVD Audio Mode" in the Oppo setup menu defaults to DVD-Audio to play hi-res audio.

Not sure what you mean by effort as it should be quite simple to get hi-res surround from current Oppo players. That is unless your processor has limitations to handle HDMI signals from Oppo players.

 

My system is a high end audio system co-existing with a home theater. I currently use the Oppo solely for playing video discs (I have a dCS Vivaldi transport for 2 channel discs). The HDMI output from the Oppo goes directly to my projector, not to my surround sound processor. I have a bunch of RCA cables (a squid) running surround sound audio from the Oppo to the surround sound processor (the output from the left and right front channels of the processor pass through the audio system's pre-amp via a processor bypass feature). I believe that multichannel PCM (whether hi rez or not) from an SACD or DVD-A played on the Oppo will output solely from an HDMI output on the Oppo, not from the RCA outputs that are currently wired (I've tried). Playing a multichannel SACD or DVD-A produces an image on the home theater screen, but no audio. There is a separate unused audio-only HDMI port available on the Oppo, but it will be a royal PITA to run an HDMI cable between the Oppo and the processor (it's VERY tight back there). I need to check the Datasat processor's literature to see if it can do anything with a hi rez PCM signal. If so, it might be worth the pain to run the extra HDMI cable (I might also end up with audio but no image).

 

Not familiar with your processor. If you have the 5/7.1 analog output of the Oppo connected correctly to your processor it should output multichannel audio with the Oppo doing the processing. Not sure why you have the left and right front channels going to the bypass as they should go to the 5/7.1 analog input of your processor. Seems to be a bit over complicated in the way you have the Oppo connected to the processor. Which Oppo player is it?

 

Problem is, it HASNT been around for half a century. After the brief Quad fling in the 70s (which basically failed) it dissappeared for 25 years. I was one of the original adopters. The biggest reason it failed? Wives HATED 4 huge speakers in her living room.

 

Yes, it would be impossible to play PCM over an analog connection. But that hi-rez, MCH PCM will be converted to analog by the Oppo and then output via the RCA outs. It's the same as having the signal send via HDMI, just that the Oppo's decoders are used instead of your processor's.

There should be an easily found solution to no audio; something isn't set up correctly. Did you make sure to choose the analog inputs on your processor? You may have the correct input chosen, but not be using the analog ins for that input. Did you set up the analog outputs in the Oppo?

Give us some more info and this knowledgeable group should have you going in no time.

 

I've always been fascinated with Quad and there's a lot of stuff out there in file form. I can play it back on my computer, isolating the tracks, which is of interest to me as an amateur musician and sort of fun. But I'm not about to tear apart my carefully configured main audio system just to obtain the full effect. If there was a way to play back the files on my computer (Mac Pro tower) and somehow output to the vintage Quad headphones I see all the time on eBay it would be worth a try (hopefully no soldering involved!). Been racking my mind about this for quite some time but can't think of a solution.

 

I remember someone on this forum getting frustrated with me for my "woe is me, my room is too hard to set up with surround" posts, until, that is, I posted pictures. I did finally get surround installed, but it's far from an ideal set up. A 6.1 would pretty much be impossible, due to my back wall being entirely taken up by a sliding glass door, and the fact that there is a huge steel beam in the attic that makes accessing the back wall nigh impossible.

 

@Ski Bum:
Agree with JimW here. You should be able to get hi-rez mch (for SACD, DVD-A, etc.) to play out of your Oppo via the analog RCA mch output. I have a similar setup to yours, with both a 2ch pre (with HT bypass) and a HT processor. My HT processor is 17 years old, so it doesn't have HDMI inputs, forcing me to use its 5.1 inputs, to which I connect my Oppo 105D's analog mch output.

Doug

 

Not in my experience. It can send high res PCM via HDMI if you tell it to do so.

 

"Wives" is pretty much the main reason ANY quality audio endeavor fails.

More than Loudness Wars, it's Home Decor that will eventually bury the audio hobby once and for all.

"Let them eat soundbars and earbuds!"

 

Thank you for your interest in helping. My Oppo is a UDP 205 and my processor is a Datasat RS20i.

The output from the left and right front channels of the processor goes through my audio system's pre-amp's bypass; the Oppo is not affected by the bypass. That's the conventional use of a processor bypass. I probably should not have mentioned it because it is causing confusion and not really relevant to the connections between the Oppo and Datasat.

I need to take a look at the connections between the Oppo and the Datasat; the Oppo was setup to send Dolby or DTS surround sound digital to the Datasat, not multichannel PCM or analog. It's not easy to get a look behind those components due to a tight rack, but I'll try do so over the next few days. The Datasat has a lot of flexibility for receiving digital, but does not have standard RCA inputs for multichannel analog. The manual indicates that the processor has a DB25F input connector for multichannel analog.

 

Both the Hollywood and San Francisco stores. The section in San Francisco is more than half of a full section. Also contains many "Original Master Recording" discs. Last time I was in Hollywood, I found it on the floor in the Jazz room. It's smaller but contains some killer (and expensive!) stuff.

 

If the Datasat RS20i doesn't have a 5/7.1 analog input then the 5/7.1 output of the 205 is not going to provide audio. Audio from the 205 5/7.1 analog output is always active so it doesn't need to be set to "on". If that's the case you'll have to use HDMI for multichannel audio.