Surround music R.I.P.

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Ed Hughes, Jul 9, 2018.

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  1. Bill Mac

    Bill Mac Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    Out of bounds :confused:? Now we're using football terms? I think you might want to do some reading on what "true surround" really is. With that I mean surround music not movie soundtracks. To say that "some speakers are louder than others when you're not at the listening position is irrelevant" is another indicator that you are not very knowledgeable in regard to surround music. Speaker volume levels in a surround setup is very important no matter what the number of speakers being used. Why do you think it is so important to take speaker volume level readings using an SPL meter from the MLP?

    You claimed earlier that "With 6.0 or more you can technically sit anywhere inside the circle and have a true surround sound" is again totally false. One can not "sit anywhere inside the circle" and get the same surround experience as one would get sitting at the MLP (Main Listening Position). That's surround 101 as far as anyone with even entry level knowledge of surround music. If one is sitting next to the left front or right surround and is experiencing unequal volume levels is due to being way out of the MLP not anything to do what the mixing engineer intended one to hear.

    Once again I'll ask what you meant earlier when you posted....
    Well why not post these mathematical facts so we can all learn.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2018
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  2. Hymie the Robot

    Hymie the Robot Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    Again, you have a lot to learn about setting up a quadraphonic system for music. It doesn't involve side speakers. Until you understand that fact I can't bother responding to your posts. Good luck!
     
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  3. Bill Mac

    Bill Mac Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    I totally agree. A 4.0 quad recording is four speakers (best if all are full range and identical if possible) with no side speakers. Certainly far from an expert on quad recordings. But I'd assume that when mixed the engineer did so with the intent of four speakers in each corner of the room (if possible) with the listener in the center of the speakers.
     
  4. shokhead

    shokhead Head shok and you still don't what it is. HA!

    Location:
    SoCal, Long Beach
  5. vwestlife

    vwestlife Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Jersey, USA
    There were experiments with other quadraphonic arrangements as well, such as in a diamond:

    [​IMG]

    Or spread out in an arc from sides to front:

    [​IMG]

    Wendy Carlos (of "Switched-On Bach" fame) has a lot of disdain for the one-speaker-in-each-corner setup that became the norm for quad, saying that it has poor imaging (scroll about 3/4ths of the way down the page):

    Wendy Carlos Surround1
     
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  6. SKATTERBRANE

    SKATTERBRANE Forum Resident

    Location:
    Tucson, AZ
  7. Michael

    Michael I LOVE WIDE S-T-E-R-E-O!

    never had a set up so I'll never miss it.
     
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  8. Michael

    Michael I LOVE WIDE S-T-E-R-E-O!

    not a fan as well?
     
  9. Drew

    Drew Senior Member

    Location:
    Grand Junction, CO
    That article is about 15 years too late.
     
  10. wgriel

    wgriel Forum Resident

    Location:
    bc, canada
    Yep, count me in. I did enjoy surround for movies, but over time I realized that I don’t watch many movies and for music I vastly prefer stereo, so I happily sold off my surround system and I’m enjoying 2.0. I can’t imagine ever going back to surround to be honest.
     
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  11. acdc7369

    acdc7369 Forum Resident

    Location:
    United States
    Quad involves side speakers that may each be a few degrees rearward at most. If you don’t have your quad system setup like that then you have it set up wrong because you have a hole in your side soundstage.

    You should read the Wendy Carlos page that was posted. You might learn something about proper quad setup.
     
  12. acdc7369

    acdc7369 Forum Resident

    Location:
    United States
    You're taking my quote out of context. Whether on purpose or not I’m not sure, but I’ll bite. I only said the volume of each speaker source is irrelevant to whether or not you’re achieving the surround sound effect. Different channels are almost always putting out different levels of volume at a given time when you’re listening to music, so volume is just not relevant to whether or not the effect exists.

    As far as SPL readings go, the room is going to distort the frequency response, and thus the SPL reading, of each speaker differently. Each speaker should be equidistant from the listening position. If you're moving one speaker closer or further away from the listening position than the others based on SPL readings, you're doing it wrong. You should be doing room treatment instead.

    No it's not false. You only need to sit at the listening position get the optimal effect and hear what the engineers intended. Otherwise with 6.0 you can sit anywhere in the circle and experience true surround sound, even if it is not optimal.

    "If one is sitting next to the left front or right surround and is experiencing unequal volume levels is due to being way out of the MLP not anything to do what the mixing engineer intended one to hear" is a redundant statement. The MLP is almost certainly what the mixing engineer intended one to hear. I think you're arguing just for the sake of arguing.

    You’re the expert, so you already know that in 2.0 stereo, each speaker should be no more than 60 degrees apart relative to the listening position to have the front soundstage in tact. It follows then that the rear speakers shouldn’t be any more than 60 degrees apart from the fronts, relative to the listening position. That means each rear speaker should be at +/- 90 degrees aka directly to the sides of the listening position in order to maintain the side soundstage. But you can get away with putting them a few degrees rearward so you can move your head a little bit back and forth. Either way you maintain the rear and side soundstages.

    You should read the Wendy Carlos page that was posted. You might learn something about proper quad setup.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2018
  13. Hifi Kenny

    Hifi Kenny Forum Resident

    Location:
    London
    Arcam immediately springs to mind. Bryston is in the multichannel market too.
     
  14. mds

    mds Forum Resident

    Location:
    PA
    Surround is in the same category as SACD, valued by few music lovers and is sure to go the way of SACD as long as it remains predominately in a physical media form. SACD benefits are that all you need is a SACD player and then at least two channel SACD can be enjoyed. Surround requires a much bigger commitment and the predominant setups are based around TV and Movies not music. Music adds the addition of needing a much more sophisticated setup to really bring the best out of the media. You need a descent processor, player and speaker system that is matched and placed so furniture does not interfere with the individual speaker's sound. When watching TV or Movies speaker placement or having all speakers matched isn't as important to the average user. For this reason I believe surround will continue to be strong with TV and Movie use but will eventually fade away like SACD is currently slipping away as it concerns audio CDs. More proof of this is the fact that Oppo has shut down its production of players which had a high audiophile fan base because of its ability to play SACD and surround sound audio CDs.
     
  15. Bill Mac

    Bill Mac Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    The Emotiva XMC-1 has a 7.1 analog input for use with universal players with a 7.1 analog output. I prefer using HDMI with the XMC-1 to utilize Dirac room correction. I compared 5.1 analog (XMC-1 and Oppo 205) to HDMI with Dirac and much prefer the benefits of Dirac over analog in my room.

    You make some valid points. I started out in surround years ago for movie watching but slowly got into surround music. Now my system is used mainly for music with very little movie use. My listening is an equal blend of stereo and multichannel music on Blu-ray, DVD-A and SACD. I've done the best to match the speakers but all five speakers are not matched exactly but as close as my room will allow. As far as furniture that's a tougher obstacle as my system is not in a dedicated room but in my living room with a few couches and a Lazy-Boy.

    As far as surround systems in homes mainly for music are not common and has been like that even when SACD and DVD-A were first introduced. Whether SACD goes the way of the dodo and with Oppo getting out of the player business will not lessen my desire to play multichannel music. That's why I stocked up on Oppo players (205 x 2, 203 x 2 and a 103) so I should be in good shape for awhile :). I think the only thing that will steer me away from surround speaker setup is if and when I decide to down size to a smaller home. Then I'll look a the Smyth Realiser A16 surround headphone system.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2018
  16. frcnorth

    frcnorth Forum Resident

    Location:
    Reno, Nevada
    I transitioned from a 2-channel set up to a 5.1 surround system to get the most out of concert DVD's and Blu-rays. As a surround sound format, concerts are well mixed (for the most part), sound really good, and new titles come out regularly. My introduction to what a fantastic sound engineer Steven Wilson is was by way of his two Porcupine Tree DVD's. Those are fantastic examples of the format done right.

    My buying priorities changed accordingly. Once I've accumulated enough of a budget to make a journey to Amoeba, I always go to the concert DVD section first. If I spend all my money on those, I am done. If not, then I venture into the section where DVD-Audio discs and SACD's are displayed and spend the rest of my money on those. I am a big fan of multi-channel music. I've garnered various titles over the years and love the way they sound on my system.
     
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  17. Hymie the Robot

    Hymie the Robot Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    No I don't have a hole in my side soundstage and yes my quad setup is properly setup. Seriously, I am glad you are happy with your 6.0 setup or however many speakers you have. Not many music recordings are in that format but I am sure you have all that figured out. Again, good luck.
     
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  18. Hymie the Robot

    Hymie the Robot Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    Simple and effective. Funny how great a setup like that sounds.

    Also what is funny are the people who feel the need to basterdized their setup which is fine, but then feel the need to tell others they should be screwing with their own simple standard setup. Pretty darn hilarious!
     
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  19. acdc7369

    acdc7369 Forum Resident

    Location:
    United States
    If your quad system is properly set up, then why are you arguing with me?

    I don’t have a 6.0 setup, I have a quad setup. A simple glance at my profile would have told you that. No need for baseless speculation.
     
  20. mds

    mds Forum Resident

    Location:
    PA
    I know I am stepping into a bees nest but my understanding of quad vs 5.1 vs 6.1 is the following:
    • Quad the speakers are placed in the rooms four corners, front and rear.
    • 5.1 the front speakers are in the front corners and there is a center speaker basically centered on the front wall which is where the television or screen would be placed. If the television or screen cannot be centered on the wall then the center speaker should be placed basically under wherever the television or screen is set. The rear speakers are on the side walls in line with the listening position and maybe a tiny bit behind but on the side walls. The subwoofer(s) is placed where it creates the most even and deepest bass notes without creating bass anomalies.
    • 6.1 is the same as 5.1, however you add two rear speakers placed in the rear corners of the room. These mirror the front corner speakers in positioning.
    This is at least my basic understanding. Of course rooms are not all alike nor are they furnished so you can follow the basic layout rules so people fidget with the positioning until they find what they prefer. All layouts are good, this is just the basic starting positions. 5.1 and 6.1 are based on speaker positions that work best with movie sound tracks and also work well with audio discs. Quad was basically designed for audio and therefore omits center speakers and subwoofers.

    No matter how you place the speakers you have to set their distance to the main listening position and set their sound levels to all be balanced (equal) to this main listening position. As in most listening rooms there is always the one sweet spot.
     
  21. shokhead

    shokhead Head shok and you still don't what it is. HA!

    Location:
    SoCal, Long Beach
    6.1 means one more speaker then 5.1 so it's a single speakers behind you.
    4.0, 4 speakers and no sub. 5.0 same as 4.0 except for a center and so on.
     
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  22. Bill Mac

    Bill Mac Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    Very true! When setup correctly a quad system sounds excellent.

    What I find very amusing is when one goes on about how great a specific system sounds but doesn't even have that type of system. Priceless :D!
    Pretty much agree with what you are saying. My only correction would be that a 6.1 system would just have a single speaker on the back wall. A 7.1 system would have two rear surround speakers and makes 6.1 obsolete. Reference from another member of a 6.0 setup doesn't make sense. It would be a system with a rear center surround speaker and no subs which certainly doesn't appeal to me. I'm quite happy with my "basic" 5.2 setup which handles 5.1 and 4.0 surround music very nicely :).

    [​IMG]

    5.1 Surround vs 6.1 Surround vs 7.1 Surround Sound Speaker Setup
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2018
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  23. Hymie the Robot

    Hymie the Robot Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    Dude, your first post here specifically said that you can't do surround correctly without at least a 6.0 setup! I figured you would have that, otherwise how would you know that. I have to say bye now (hand waves goodbye).
     
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  24. Hymie the Robot

    Hymie the Robot Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA

    Pretty much, other than the 6.1 clarification Bill made.

    Blending a full front AND rear soundstage into one beautiful experience works for me. Side speakers don't do that for me and was originally designed for home theater. If that does work for others, great, not all our rooms and equipment are the same obviously, and our ears are different too.
     
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  25. mds

    mds Forum Resident

    Location:
    PA
    Agreed, my mistake. I also am very satisfied with 5.1 for both audio and movies/tv. I have the rear speakers at the side walls but slightly behind my sitting position and this works very well for me.
     
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