Syd Barrett's sister on Pink Floyd reunion at Live 8

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Chris M, Jun 16, 2005.

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  1. 4_everyman

    4_everyman The Sexual Intellectual

    Sorry for being slow, but can someone explain this to me? I know that Senator Frist is also a physician, but i thought his specialty was internal medicine rather than mental illness.
  2. rene smalldridge

    rene smalldridge Senior Member

    ......I think somebody was being a political smart alek and referring to Senator Frist and his comments on the video concerning that unforunate woman in Florida. Your'e not slow....sometimes people just gotta get their shot in whether appropriate to the thread subject or not.
  3. alexandria

    alexandria New Member

    Kentucky, USA
    Syd's Schizophrenia


    As for my "proof" that Syd's sister, Rosemary, is in "denial" about Syd's "condition", read the following interview with her from the book "Fish out of Water". You can come to your own conclusions, but having worked with families who have guardianship over relatives with mental illness, they can sometimes not face reality, which leads to potential problems when they refuse treatment for their loved ones.

    Look, some simple rules for schizophrenia. It affects more men than women, attacks usually in the late teens or early twenties, and can be exacerbated by drug abuse. Sound familiar?
    People's personalities change, most times permanently. People do not show emotion, and refrain from tasks they used to take pleasure in. Again, is this not Syd?

    Schizophrenics typically have hard times with social interaction, hence they often live alone without marrying. Things like diabetes are common because motivation is low (it's part of the disease folks) and taking care of one's health isn't as important sometimes.

    You can say what proof I, or Roger Waters have, till the cows come home. The above assertions apply to Syd. That, coupled with what we know about his breakdown and what the symptoms involved in that were, leads anyone with even a cursory knowledge about such matters to conclude the man has some form of schizophrenia. It's not an attack, it's reality. It's un-reality to imagine Syd as just some shy chap who likes to paint, be left alone, and not thing about "The Pink Floyd"...

    Even if Syd tried some of the newer anti-psychotic meds, he may not approach his old self, but there's a chance he would. The newer (atypical) medications are very effective and have less severe side effects than the old style meds, like Haldol, Thorazine, or Prolixin.

    Here, look at the DSM IV's criteria for schizophrenia:


    The most common psychotic disorder, affecting 1% of the world population, and having a strong familial tendency. Between one third and one half of homeless Americans have schizophrenia.

    * Learning Problem
    * Hypoactivity
    * Psychosis
    * Euphoric Mood
    * Depressed Mood
    * Somatic or Sexual Dysfunction
    * Hyperactivity
    * Guilt or Obsession
    * Sexually Deviant Behavior
    * Odd/Eccentric or Suspicious Personality
    * Anxious or Fearful or Dependent Personality
    * Dramatic or Erratic or Antisocial Personality

    Diagnostic Criteria

    1. Characteristic symptoms: Two (or more) of the following, each present for a significant portion of time during a 1-month period (or less if successfully treated):

    1. delusions
    2. hallucinations
    3. disorganized speech (e.g., frequent derailment or incoherence)
    4. grossly disorganized or catatonic behavior
    5. negative symptoms (i.e., affective flattening, alogia, or avolition)

    Note: Only one Criterion A symptom is required if delusions are bizarre or hallucinations consist of a voice keeping up a running commentary on the person's behavior or thoughts, or two or more voices conversing with each other.
    2. Social/occupational dysfunction: For a significant portion of the time since the onset of the disturbance, one or more major areas of functioning such as work, interpersonal relations, or self-care are markedly below the level achieved prior to the onset (or when the onset is in childhood or adolescence, failure to achieve expected level of interpersonal, academic, or occupational achievement).

    3. Duration: Continuous signs of the disturbance persist for at least 6 months. This 6-month period must include at least 1 month of symptoms (or less if successfully treated) that meet Criterion A (i.e., active-phase symptoms) and may include periods of prodromal or residual symptoms. During these prodromal or residual periods, the signs of the disturbance may be manifested by only negative symptoms or two or more symptoms listed in Criterion A present in an attenuated form (e.g., odd beliefs, unusual perceptual experiences).

    4. Schizoaffective and Mood Disorder exclusion: Schizoaffective Disorder and Mood Disorder With Psychotic Features have been ruled out because either (1) no Major Depressive Episode, Manic Episode, or Mixed Episode have occurred concurrently with the active-phase symptoms; or (2) if mood episodes have occurred during active-phase symptoms, their total duration has been brief relative to the duration of the active and residual periods.

    5. Substance/general medical condition exclusion: The disturbance is not due to the direct physiological effects of a substance (e.g., a drug of abuse, a medication) or a general medical condition.

    6. Relationship to a Pervasive Developmental Disorder: If there is a history of Autistic Disorder or another Pervasive Developmental Disorder, the additional diagnosis of Schizophrenia is made only if prominent delusions or hallucinations are also present for at least a month (or less if successfully treated).

    Diagnostic Criteria of Schizophrenia Subtypes

    Paranoid Type

    A type of Schizophrenia in which the following criteria are met:

    1. Preoccupation with one or more delusions or frequent auditory hallucinations.
    2. None of the following is prominent: disorganized speech, disorganized or catatonic behavior, or flat or inappropriate affect.

    Catatonic Type

    A type of Schizophrenia in which the clinical picture is dominated by at least two of the following:

    1. motoric immobility as evidenced by catalepsy (including waxy flexibility) or stupor
    2. excessive motor activity (that is apparently purposeless and not influenced by external stimuli)
    3. extreme negativism (an apparently motiveless resistance to all instructions or maintenance of a rigid posture against attempts to be moved) or mutism
    4. peculiarities of voluntary movement as evidenced by posturing (voluntary assumption of inappropriate or bizarre postures)
    5. stereotyped movements, prominent mannerisms, or prominent grimacing
    6. echolalia or echopraxia

    Disorganized Type

    A type of Schizophrenia in which the following criteria are met:

    1. All of the following are prominent:
    1. disorganized speech
    2. disorganized behavior
    3. flat or inappropriate affect
    2. The criteria are not met for Catatonic Type.

    Undifferentiated Type

    A type of Schizophrenia in which symptoms that meet Criterion A are present, but the criteria are not met for the Paranoid, Disorganized, or Catatonic Type.
    Residual Type

    A type of Schizophrenia in which the following criteria are met:

    1. Absence of prominent delusions, hallucinations, disorganized speech, and grossly disorganized or catatonic behavior.
    2. There is continuing evidence of the disturbance, as indicated by the presence of negative symptoms or two or more symptoms listed in Criterion A for Schizophrenia, present in an attenuated form (e.g., odd beliefs, unusual perceptual experiences).

    (The attachments are the aforementioned scans of the interview with Syd's sister from the book Fish Out of Water...)


    Attached Files:

  4. Chris M

    Chris M Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Baton Rouge, LA
    The interview in the Fish Out of Water book is widely consider by Syd enthusiasts to be a fake.
  5. peter

    peter Forum Resident

    The reason why people still care about Syd, and why Syd matters, is we rarely get brilliance and wit like that anymore. We seem to be getting by (and all we are is getting by) on the snippets.

    Because we need more than the snippets, people care intensely about Syd and those like him. They matter in ways and degrees that are impossible to describe or quantify.
  6. Driver 8

    Driver 8 Forum Resident

    I don't know that the BW story is one of triumph or not. I'm a huge fan, but I haven't listened to the new recording of Smile since the week I bought it. Even though the new recording is amazing in many regards, the moment came and went in the 60s when it could have been a viable contender to Sgt. Pepper. The attempt to recapture the spirit of '67 would seem doomed to failure - I don't think that Syd could come out of retirement to re-record Vegetable Man and add anything to his legacy - we have what we have, and that's it. And there's something creepy about the videos that I have seen of BW performing in various contexts - on the Tonight show, live concerts, etc. At moments he still has that deer in the headlights look, he doesn't appear to play the piano at all, it's questionable whether it's even plugged in, etc. All I was suggesting was that it might be best for BW as a person to retire from show business and rest on his considerable accomplishments - I certainly don't know enough about the personal lives of BW or SB to make a definitive pronouncement in this regard, however.
  7. alexandria

    alexandria New Member

    Kentucky, USA
    Fish Out of Water

    There is more proof that Syd has schizophrenia than that the interview in Fish Out of Water is a Fake...

    In fact, it's the first I've heard of that...what evidence is there to support such a claim?
  8. ezio gallino

    ezio gallino New Member

    torino (italia) NW
    Have you seen that nice film "A beautiful mind" and actual interview of John Nash on DVD?
  9. RexKramer

    RexKramer Forum Resident

    Outside of Philly
    I'd never claim to be a Syd expert, but I've read the contemporary magazine interviews and
    "Crazy Diamond." When I did read "Fish out of Water" I did question its authenticity about
    halfway through the book. I passed it off at the time to poor translation from Italian or
    whatever the native language was, but something seemed too pat about it.

  10. czeskleba

    czeskleba Senior Member

    I wasn't saying that I believe Syd does not have schizophrenia. I think it is highly possible that he does. I was simply saying that we cannot say for sure. Even if a person is trained and qualified to make mental health diagnoses, it is unethical to do so without meeting and interviewing the person and gathering a comprehensive history of their symptoms. Based on the limited information we have about his symptoms we can speculate, but that is all.

    If the interview with Syd's sister is not a fake, I notice that she does not offer her own opinion on Syd's condition, but merely states what "the doctors" told her. And again, it is not her role to make decisions about what medications Syd takes. She is not his legal guardian. So even if she is in denial that doesn't prevent Syd from taking medications.

    My own educated guess is that he is schizophrenic and that he is probably taking one of the newer antipsychotics. The new antipsychotics are not miracle cures. They can help dramatically reduce symptoms for people who are flagrantly psychotic and/or impaired in basic functioning like hygiene, self care, etc. But they don't suddenly take away all negative symptoms and make a schizophrenic suddenly outgoing and restore their full range of emotional response. There's no medication that works that well.

    If Syd is schizophrenic, he seems relatively high functioning, and is probably doing about the best that could be. I doubt a different medication would make much difference. But again, I'm just speculating based on a very limited pool of information.
  11. davenav

    davenav Forum Resident

    Brooklyn, USA
    We got to see a man re-enter public life and regain his legacy. It's been bumpy, but that just adds to the miraculousness of it. I highly recommend seeing the SMiLE dvd and seeing a real transformation taking place where BW faces his fears, retackles his unfinished music, and heals himself. Yeah, sure it ain't the sixties, it coulda been a contender, but so what? His music, like Syd's is from another, higher, place and I want to hear more of it.
  12. blase_faire

    blase_faire New Member


    My god, please do not base your opinion of mental illness in general, or schizophrenia in particular, on a Ronny Howard film! For one, most schizophrenics have audio hallucinations, not visual ones. The visual angle was played-up to make a good film. Secondly, for every John Nash, Brian Wilson, or Syd Barrett, there are dozens upon dozens of schizophrenics whose greatest accomplishment for any given day is to chain-smoke a carton of cigarettes, bleach one’s nicotine-stained fingers, or watch a ZZ Top beard eclipse the two foot mark in the mirror. It’s no put-down, it’s reality. Come work a shift with me at a halfway house near Cincinnati to see for yourself…In other words, most people with schizophrenia don’t get better, many become worse, many die young, most are in poor health. Very few record Smile, solve physics problems, or play guitar like Syd did…

    I know what Alexandria is saying here. Folks, there’s a stigma to mental illness so people are oft times ashamed to talk about it when it affects them or their family. I think it’s sad that Syd’s sister has seemingly downplayed Syd’s problems (I’ve read other bits and quotes similar to the “fake” interview in “Fish Out of Water”, which appears real to me…”)

    The field of mental health is filled with euphemisms, many times because of this stigma, shame and denial. For instance, when somebody says they have a “nerve problem” or need a “nerve pill”, it typically means they have some sort of anxiety disorder or take minor tranquilizers.

    If someone accredits their woes to a “chemical imbalance”, it could mean any number of mental health problems. For some reason, chemical imbalance doesn’t sound as terrible to people as “depression” or “bipolar disorder”.

    The “personality problems” Rosemary Breen refers to don’t really mean anything. Does Syd have a personality disorder? Possibly, but not probably. For anyone who knows what a true, diagnosed personality disorder is (Borderline, Narcissistic, etc), you would realize that Syd’s profile doesn’t really fit. People with schizophrenia have anger issues sometimes because having the disease is hard.

    Schizophrenia's been called a “living death”, and that’s what it feels like to family members, too. Syd isn’t living at home with his pet mouse Gerald having a rest, which is the feeling I get from his sister’s descriptions. He’s dealing with a horrible disease that will probably shorten his life span…Tragic

    Shine on...
  13. trainspotter

    trainspotter New Member

    Sydney Australia
    I guess we all have our opinions here. Some better informed than others.

    If I were Syd's Sister I would probably want to protect him as much as I could, build a few walls and fences, and keep the wolves from his door. I guess one way to interpret that is to call it denial.

    Also, re the denial thing, regardless of whether you are ashamed of the stigma it brings the family, the last thing I would do is tell the world my brother had such a serious illness. Most people just don't understand it, and for many, it all boils down to "crazy" or "not crazy".
    I wouldn't want the general uninformed masses viewing my close family member as "crazy" for their sake.

    Also, I probably wouldn't go to outside meet fans who camp on my footpath either. Fans have a tendency to shout, grab and make you somehow responsible for their future, past, philosophies, religon, etc etc, and really who the hell needs that crap?
  14. Chris M

    Chris M Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Baton Rouge, LA
    He certainly may have schizophrenia. I really have no idea but I don't see how any of us can say with any certainty what is wrong with him. Here is a summary of some of the contradictions in the interviews in the Fish Out of Water book.

    MAN? Late Night Fanzine Issue #2.

    Fish Out of Water also contains 31 pages of what purports to
    be two Rosemary (Barrett) Breen interviews conducted by Roulin in 1994
    and 1995, with three accompanying color reproductions of "Roger's"
    recent paintings. I say purports to be an interview because key points
    that "Ms. Breen" makes completely contradict established information
    provided by... Paul Breen! For a book that "hopes and wishes to be the
    last (one) written on the subject of Roger 'Svd' Barrett", 'A Fish
    Out Of Water' is extremely confusing for a number of reasons!
    The first of which is the language problem. If we assume that
    everything with the interviews is above board, they were conducted in
    English by a French woman, then translated into Italian, and seemingly
    then translated back into English by two individuals who had little
    understanding of the mechanics of that language! Instead of simply
    transcribing the tapes (the interviews would have been conducted in
    English), the Italian translation appears to have been tackled head on
    with little more than an Italian/English phrase book and a measure of
    hope, so that Ms. Roulin's description of watching a British
    children's program reads: "A boy, very good looking and with a
    charming smile is entertaining children via etere with paper works
    which are laid on a huge coloured table. England is a reliable country
    for such things". There you go, clear as mud.
    The second, as touched on above, is that it contains some seriously
    contradictory information. Why, after assisting Watkinson and Anderson
    with the writing of their 'Crazy Diamond' biography, would Rosemary
    completely change her account of Roger's financial state, especially
    after her husband Paul was quoted as saying "it never ceases to amaze
    me how many royalties still flood in for someone who has not recorded
    any thing in 26 years..."? Also, it's my understanding that while
    Rosemary is the person responsible for 'looking after' Roger, it's his
    older brothers, not the Breens, who handle his business affairs and
    royalties... I think the best way for me to cover the two 'interviews'
    is to list, then comment on, the salient points contained in each.
    I've done so as revelations (new and/or interesting information) and
    contradictions (information that runs counter to things that are
    already established).

    INTERVIEW ONE: Cambridge, February 15th, 1994 (pages 18-46)
    1. Humor has always been very important to Roger. Much of what people
    have mistakenly thought of as being the result of mental illness
    (including his 'Wish You Were Here' visit) is in fact simply his
    unique sense of humor.
    "His life has always been a joke. He has never been depressed, believe
    me, never. He doesn't know the meaning of depression". (Pgs. 21-22)
    2. May still take mandrax!?! "Yes. I think he still uses it... he is
    still looking for 'oblivion' in a sense, because life is really
    difficult when we are alone and nobody tells you he/she appreciates
    you". (Pg. 25)
    3. Not schizophrenic, but suffers from "anger attacks". "Roger has
    never been schizophrenic... there is no problem inside him, no mental
    one. He was born like this and it is all right. It is not an illness".
    (Pgs. 27-28)
    4. Doesn't write songs but still plays music. "He mainly plays plain
    chords but he is happy of doing it. And this is very beautiful. And
    then he has a mouth-organ. Yes, he still likes making music"
    5.The History Of Art. "(Over the last two years) he has written more
    than one hundred pages, typed in A4 format, on both sides. One hundred
    pages going on back to the drawings of the caves and, through all the
    details, until our days, century after century. It is an absolutely
    wonderful work" (Pgs. 42-43)
    6. Still goes to London on occasion. "Oh, he goes to London twice a
    year He stays there only one day and goes to visit museums, the
    National (Gallery), the British Museums, the Tate Gallery. But in a
    hurry. He goes in and out, he never watches with care. He probably
    feels to go but then when he is there he wants to come back home as
    soon as possible". (Pg. 44)

    1. He has no money. "You see, he wants things like a CD player; he
    hasn't got one yet, but he would like to have it. He would like to
    have things, but he hasn't got any money and so he can't. I give him
    what I can." (Pgs. 24 & 41)

    OK, this is a real problem! By all accounts, sick or not, Roger is
    quite well off thanks to his royalties and a government disability
    pension. Paul Breen said as much to both Watkinson and Anderson and
    Charles Spencer. Could a husband and wife really have such vastly
    different views of the same person's finances?

    2. He signed away all of his Pink Floyd royalties. 'My brother signed
    a paper where he declared he would have not asked the band for a
    single pound and for this reason he lost millions. But he never
    regretted for having signed that paper; never!". (Pg. 26) And after
    finding out that he is still so angry at Roger Waters that he often
    "shouts out his name", we are told that "Roger (Barrett) has not
    received the royalties anymore for many years. Nobody sends them and
    so he doesn't get a penny." (Pg. 54)

    This simply isn't true. Dave Gilmour has championed the cause of
    seeing that Rog gets his royalties since the 70's! In fact, one of the
    main reasons that Pink Floyd allowed the mono 'Piper' set to come out,
    and that they covered 'Astronomy Domine', was to insure that the money
    would keep coming in for him! But let's say for a moment that such a
    'non-payment' agreement did exist: it still wouldn't affect his solo
    material and related publishing rights. There is no reason that Roger
    Barrett wouldn't be getting royalties from his entire back catalog!

    INTERVIEW TWO: Cambridge, August 15th, 1995 (Pgs. 50-58) The shorter,
    and considerably more downbeat, of the two interviews. Just to make
    things more interesting the book now begins to contradict it self.

    1. He still shaves his whole body, eyebrows included. '...His head is
    completely shaven and also his eyebrows. He shaves his whole body
    completely - it's a mania'. (Pgs. 53 and 29) Maybe he got the idea
    from something he saw on MTV. This almost got listed as a
    'contradiction', because there are a number of photos of Roger taken
    during the late 80's and 90's that show he has had, at least part of
    the time, hair and eyebrows.

    2. That History Of Art again. This time, not so wonderful. "I haven't
    read it because it's very thick and it's boring to me... It's an
    endless list of names and works he has taken from other books. There
    is very little of himself Some comments here and there" (Pg. 52)

    3. Beam him up! "Star Trek! He goes crazy for Star Trek. Every kind of
    series, the old, the new ones. All Them". (Pg. 52)

    1. OK? Did I say he was OK? "From time to time he has some anger
    attacks and this causes him much pain. Yes, he cries". (Pg. 55) And
    then: "Roger is a completely different person. The brother I knew
    before was another person... That drug is terrible, it can cause
    something you can't even imagine. Roger was such a sociable and merry
    person... And now it's over thanks to LSD. He got his brain damaged by
    LSD. No return". (Pg. 57)

    Once again we've come full circle. After spending much of the previous
    interview explaining that her brother has never been mentally ill,
    only misunderstood, 'Ms. Breen' now takes a different tact all
    together; my brother, the acid-addled shadow of his former self. See
    why I said this book was confusing? For every bit of information that
    tallies with what we already know (like that Rog once spent time in a
    drug rehabilitation home in Essex during the 80's), there's something
    that raises serious questions about the authenticity of the whole
    book! And what about the diabetes? You'd think, with all the other
    'revelations', that that would be mentioned too! I'm sure that some of
    you out there have Syd's address, but does anyone have the name and
    address of the Breen family hotel in Cambridge? I'd love to contact
    them and see what they have to say about 'A Fish Out Of Water'!"
  15. ezio gallino

    ezio gallino New Member

    torino (italia) NW
    I referred to John Nash interview in DVD special contents. Particularly when he said that modern drugs helped him a lot for his work and his "normal" life. And his living had deeply improved. this just regarding the fact there are no cures. I must admit however to be an ignorant of the matter.
  16. ezio gallino

    ezio gallino New Member

    torino (italia) NW
    LSD..., million of people has taken LSD in the sixties, and seem sure than LSD alone never RUINED anybody's mind. Barret's including.
    LSD might evidence a pre-existent psicosis, must be avoided by some kind of subject, might expose to some risk, but great majority who used it is actually found normal.
    IMHO barret was a very sensible guy, Mandrax was worser than LSD for him, and at last look at his schedule in those years, continuing stressing dates, tour, hotels, recordings, day after day after day. someone resists the pressure ,others front man as he and Jim Morrison simply not ; so many begin to abuse of drugs. This is the tragedy for musician, expecially in those years.
  17. Driver 8

    Driver 8 Forum Resident

    I've known at least one person that I am 99% sure is an acid casualty in the sense that she took one too many trips and never came all the way back, so to speak. I agree with your theory that persons with pre-existing mental health problems may be more prone to this reaction to LSD.
  18. bluesbro

    bluesbro Forum Hall of Shame

    Really??? Ask Peter Green. :rolleyes:
  19. Robert Hutton

    Robert Hutton New Member

    "I admit to allowing myself to fantasize about Syd, er, Roger returning to music. It would be so very interesting to hear what he would come up with after all these years."

    What a laugh.

    Anyone who has the slightest clue about playing music knows - this guy hasn't had an instrument in his hand in almost 40 years, and even before that, hardly had what anyone could describe as 'chops'.

    Whether he is schizo or not is wholly irrelevant and a waste of time to debate.

    Even if he had the desire, there is little chance Sid could be made competent enough to play in a pickup band at the local pub, let alone play with Pink Floyd at Live8.

    Sid was finished in music almost 40 years ago. Mental condition is irrelevant. He ain't coming back.
  20. davenav

    davenav Forum Resident

    Brooklyn, USA
    I have a *slight* clue about playing music, thank you very much! I work in recording studios and am producing three albums at the moment. Every musician is different and every story is different.

    All I said was "it would be interesting." I don't think that merits the attack you just made. Nobody suggested he should play Live8, for gosh sakes!

    And his name is spelled 'Syd', Mr. All-Knowing, so I'm taking your opinions with a big grain of salt from now on.
  21. Stax Fan

    Stax Fan Active Member

    Ironically, this very thread is nearly as interesting a study in psychology as anything about Syd. :)
  22. Robert Hutton

    Robert Hutton New Member

    Mr. Davenav,

    I hardly made an attack. If you think that's an attack, you need to get out from under your mamma's apron more often. Sheesh.

    If you did have a slight clue, and read what I wrote instead of focusing on yourself and your sensitive ego, you would know that Syd wasn't hardly a very competent player at best, he had spirit fueled by drugs, but no real technique. Given the 40 years away, and the absence of the conditions of the day, Syd today would be taking guitar lessons in the kiddie starter class and it's highly doubtful he has any talent left. And that would be if he were motivated. He isn't.

    So, if Syd were to reunite with Pink Floyd, it would most certainly not be interesting. It would, at best, be a sad joke.

    And, Mr." Got to be good-lookin' cause he's so hard to see", I've got far better to fantasize about than Syd, have you seen a pic of him lately? You really need to get out more!
  23. vex

    vex New Member

    Seattle, WA
    Well, Mr. Robert Hutton, if your first message wasn't an attack you more than made up for it in your second one, now didn't ya?

    Whassup with these newbs anyway?
  24. cdice

    cdice New Member

    I have a friend from high school. She had the nickname, Crazy Kelly. She was, well, "different". Very intellectual, though. But Crazy Kelly went to college and discovered LSD. I don't know how many times she dropped acid, but it must have been one time too many. Crazy Kelly is now 50 years old, and lives at home with mom-and-dad, and mom-and-dad are barely able to take care of themselves, let alone Crazy Kelly. I always wanted to try acid--but never did--and after seeing what happened to my friend, Kelly, I'm glad I never gave into temptation.
  25. fitzysbuna

    fitzysbuna Forum Resident

    I totally agree with Robert Hutton
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