Taming harshness/listener fatigue in a room

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by stay crunchy, Jan 18, 2016.

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  1. stay crunchy

    stay crunchy Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Austin-area, Texas
    Howdy all, hoping for a bit of advice on taming the harshness in my listening room. My apologies if this was covered in another thread. Recently, my brother and I built some acoustic panels (2x4, OC 703) and have them set up at the first and second reflection points on the side walls, and directly behind my main speakers (Klipsch Quartets). It's a simple 2 channel set up with some vintage receivers that swap in and out (Sansui 2000x and a Marantz 2270), a CD player and my turntables. Upon setting up the panels, I noticed a difference...not huge, but something very subtle, as if there was a bit less reverb or "extra sound." I really don't have golden ears to describe it. I then stuck some couch cushions in the corner (I only have one corner along the wall with the speakers; the other "corner" is open to the hallway and rest of the house) and it made much more of a difference...the extra boomy-ness and flub weren't as pronounced as before. It's not an earth-shattering improvement, but I am noticing a difference. Eventually we will build a proper corner bass trap.

    Anyway, after listening more critically for a few days I've noticed that the highs are now painfully harsh...even on older vinyl that I found much smoother before. It's like when you crank up a new CD--a ton of distortion that's unpleasant. When I listen to a CD, wow, it's really bad! This distortion was there before, but much less noticeable. I listen to music (METAL) at around 80-100dB and can tolerate the bit of "honk" the Quartets throw out, but this harshness is pretty rough. It cannot be simply "unheard."

    So, I got to thinking that maybe I'm just listening more critically than before to see if these panels really do work. I've noticed a bit more of subtle details that didn't catch my attention before; however, I'm also noticing instruments "smearing" together more, and at times a blurring a of where instruments sit in the soundstage. Does any of that make sense? Again, I don't have that great an ear, but this is what I believe I'm hearing. And I have been totally sober, for the most part, when listening.

    I'm thinking (have been for some time) of upgrading the crossovers/tweeters in the Quartets; they're about 23-4 years old now. Don't know if that will tame the harshness and help things, but at least it will extend the life of them, and I do like them a lot. The old receivers I'm using have been professionally serviced and are not even being pushed over 50%. I've also fiddled with the treble and hi-filter controls, not much help. So.....

    Do I need some other form of acoustic treatments, like diffuses or something? I really don't want to upgrade equipment or start hanging panels from the ceiling.

    As always, thanks in advance for any advice or suggestions.
     
  2. Captain Wiggette

    Captain Wiggette Forum Resident

    Location:
    Seattle
    An overly bright room can definitely make things worse. You may also be listening louder (from the speakers) than you realize & than you were before once you've deadened some of the reverb in the room.

    Honestly, I am very sensitive to harshness and brightness and fatigue, which is why I don't like Klipsch and many horn designs (and many movie theaters) because they grate on me over time. Also why I'm generally not the biggest fan of metal tweeters (as long as I'm making sweeping generalizations).

    You are also listening at extremely loud levels (100db?? Seriously, did you measure that?) and maybe you're just now hearing the distortion that was previously masked by the cacophony of an untreated room.
     
  3. The FRiNgE

    The FRiNgE Forum Resident

    Your first and second reflection treatment is a good approach. The reduced time smear should be reducing harshness, as comb filtering is also reduced. (the comb filter is proven to be highly fatiguing) However you are noticing an increase in fatigue, so it is coming from a cause other than your room treatment, at least indirectly.

    The first advice is to give your ears a break. Take a few days away from your music (your ears will thank you) You'll be surprised how much sharper your hearing will be.

    Here is what I think is happening, two major factors: (please forgive the numerical method)

    1) The overall room frequency response has been altered by your room treatment. In the untreated, reflective room, the frequencies most affected (reflective) are in the lower treble area, from about 2 kHz to 5 kHz. This is the area of hearing of highest sensitivity. The reflections are time smeared, so, any distortion or graininess will be masked. Your treated room is simply correcting the time smear, and revealing the flaws in your system and/or speakers.

    2) As the ears become fatigued, the perception of treble begins to become less sensitive, the same area of highest sensitivity from 2 kHz to 5 kHz. Any distortion present in higher frequencies, above 5 kHz will become more pronounced. Hearing fatigue does not occur generally in the highest octave, since the levels there are normally not loud enough to cause fatigue. But the treble area I described DOES cause fatigue. I think you have been experiencing that, so you will perceive any flaws in the system as maybe... the highest octaves are not being reproduced cleanly.

    I may not be correct for this particular problem, however fatigue can cause weird stuff to happen in our brain, things sounding really strange
    You may want to consider an upgrade for your amp or speakers.
    Just as a reference, metal is pretty much a steady state sound, (highly compressed) so at 100 dB, your safe listening window is about 30 minutes. For more dynamic music (pop/rock/ jazz) with peaks at 100 db, the listening time gets much longer, perhaps about 2 to 3 hours before fatigue sets in.

    rock on,
    Steve VK
     
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  4. murphythecat

    murphythecat https://www.last.fm/user/murphythecat

    Location:
    Canada
    I think your speakers might be the source of the problem. also if you use a old receiver and old speakers, I think that you should change those.

    To tame bright speakers, Id recommend to place your speaker without any toe in, or maybe 5-10 degree max.
    Treat your first reflections points. the side walls really help, but you should experiment for behind the listenin position because some prefer to not apply treatment on the back wall (behind the LP). I have a heavily treated room, but I dont think it will help your sound. If your not satisfied with your sound right now, treating your room may even more show you how bad your speaker and amp are...

    I'm not sure with speakers crossover, but I know that electrolytics in power amps must be changed every 10 year and film caps every 15 years. I think you should recap the speakers if you really want to keep them.
     
  5. Mr Bass

    Mr Bass Chevelle Ma Belle

    Location:
    Mid Atlantic
    You may be experiencing the results of reducing the bass bloat. Psycho-acoustically, lower notes tend to mask higher notes. The louder the bass notes the more they mask. So if you suddenly reduce the bass now the treble is unmasked. That doesn't mean there is any change in the treble, simply that the masking has been removed. So it sounds like it is your system that has issues in the treble.
     
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  6. The FRiNgE

    The FRiNgE Forum Resident

    That is true, even if there has been no change in the treble. The increase in perceived distortion could be a combination of reduced bass bloat, plus the reduction in time smear, plus listening fatigue. However the distortion is there, and shouldn't be.
     
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  7. tmtomh

    tmtomh Forum Resident

    While none of us can put ourselves in your room or your ears, I really think these two posts capture the most likely explanation: You are hearing something you don't like that's been uncovered (or at least further highlighted) by the improvement you've gained from your acoustic treatments.

    At the risk of making gross overgeneralizations, I will offer two further thoughts from my own experience:
    1. The better my equipment/room setup has gotten, the more I've heard unpleasant mid/treble sounds that are part of the mastering of some albums (not to mention studio sounds, equipment noise from the original recording chain, tape hiss, and so on). Some of your metal records might just be mastered with harsh mid-treble.
    2. The better my setup has gotten, the more I've found myself almost unconsciously turning up the volume to enjoy the richer, more detailed sound - only to reach a point where the increased volume started revealing remaining harshness or issues with my setup and/or the musical source. When I consciously turn down the volume slightly and give my ears a chance, I hear all the wonderful detail and impact, and I don't get ear fatigue.
    3. I probably should bring out the :hide: for this one: Those vintage solid-state receivers are fantastic - I have a Marantz 2230 in my secondary system myself - but IMHO they are far from the most refined or highly resolving equipment around. That "three-martini Marantz" sound is gorgeous but very round and not the most accurate in the world. And those horns speakers are super-cool but not the easiest things to control. If you are really accustomed to cranking up the volume on vintage equipment like that, then a sudden increase in accuracy or resolution can come as a real aural shock. In this respect, I would echo others' comments that you might want to move away from horn speakers if you can.
     
  8. Mr Bass

    Mr Bass Chevelle Ma Belle

    Location:
    Mid Atlantic
    I don't know that the horns are the main issue here. But the advantage of horns is that you can use low power tube gear and still get dynamics and volume. Even lower power quality SS amps might sound better than those receivers. If it were me I would look for better amplification first.
     
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  9. stay crunchy

    stay crunchy Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Austin-area, Texas
    Thanks, Captain. I have the volume controls in their normal place, and haven't cranked it up any more than usual. I use a sound meter app on my phone. Not sure how accurate it is, but it's registering roughly the same dB level as before I put in the treatments. I usual listen around 83-5 dB or so. Occasionally when I crank it, it will hit a 100 dB or so, but I don't leave it that loud for very long. I guess it really is the distortion that was masked before that's now surfaced.
     
  10. tmtomh

    tmtomh Forum Resident

    Very good point! :righton:
     
  11. stay crunchy

    stay crunchy Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Austin-area, Texas
    Thank you Steve, I appreciate your response. I will definitely be taking a little break. Looks like my little improvement has revealed the true nature of my equipment, which is too bad because I really like the way it sounds (minus the harshness). I would say it's the top end of the distorted guitars that are the serious offenders, along with Rob Halford's vocals, ha! I believe those would fit into the 2-5 kHz range you pointed out.
     
  12. stay crunchy

    stay crunchy Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Austin-area, Texas
    Thank you murphythecat. I do toe in the speakers like you mention and I have the first reflection points covered. I did put one of the panels behind my listening position; however, my listening position is about a foot away from the wall, and I didn't notice much difference. I may try it again. Anyway, I do really like the speakers and was hoping that a recap may be a less painful ($$$) solution.
     
  13. stay crunchy

    stay crunchy Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Austin-area, Texas
    Thank you, Mr. Bass. The bass sounds as loud as it was before, so maybe the excess bloat that's being absorbed now is allowing the treble to really stand out. Turning the treble down on the receivers only seems to muffle the sound; I don't supposed there's a way to tame it, is there?
     
  14. murphythecat

    murphythecat https://www.last.fm/user/murphythecat

    Location:
    Canada
    When I began my hifi journey about 6 years ago, I actually had a pair of klipsh quartet in black. I had in that time a recap dynaco a25, b&W old model, jbl l19 and other model I dont remember.

    I preffered my recap dynaco a25 over all those speakers. The klipsh was indeed bright iirc but they were not recapped. I found them less coherent then dynaco a 25

    In the similar price range and horn loaded, maybe try to find a pair of Technics SB-E100. I compared them to tannoy 15 gold and they held there own.
     
  15. Mr Bass

    Mr Bass Chevelle Ma Belle

    Location:
    Mid Atlantic
    There is no way to tame it with your current system IMO. Again I would try better amplification first. If you are happy with the Klipsch horns then changing to dynamics or panels is going to be a very drastic difference that probably won't please. Look for lower powered tube or SS amplifiers. I doubt you need anything more than 50 watts.
     
  16. FJosh

    FJosh Forum Resident

    I question if a cellphone microphone can register 100db accurately, or honestly at all.

    Horns can be fatiguing. Do you know anybody with some silk/soft dome tweeter speakers that you could listen to in your room?
     
  17. stay crunchy

    stay crunchy Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Austin-area, Texas
    Thank you, tmtomh. I do agree that many METAL records don't have great mastering, and many re-mastered albums sound even worse. So, can I reasonably assume, that even with better equipment, that harshness will still be there (to some extent) due to the record itself? And thank you for bringing out "the chair," that's the funniest thing I have seen all day!!! Yeah, I know, I know...I have been waiting for someone to break the news to me about accuracy and vintage equipment. And I do agree. I have a Rotel receiver hooked up to my HT set up in another room (untreated) and it's definitely more accurate, very crisp and detailed. Do I like it better? I know it's better...but there's just something about that old stuff that really puts a smile on my face.

    As for my horny Quartets...well, I've connected the same old receivers with a pair of JBL L26s (I know, I know, still not very accurate or revealing) that have been refoamed, coned, and capped, and although there's a crisper sound, it's still pushing out the harshness like the Quartets. I really enjoy both sets of speakers (or at least I did until about a week ago!), but I probably listen to the Quartets more.
     
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  18. stay crunchy

    stay crunchy Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Austin-area, Texas
    When you're talking about "lower power" SS amps, how low are you talking about? Any recommendations I should look at?
     
  19. stay crunchy

    stay crunchy Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Austin-area, Texas
    I don't know how accurate it is, either...probably not that great. But it's all I have to use as a guide. I have also used my JBL L26s, not sure what kind of tweeter they have, but they are bringing out the harshness, too. Unfortunately, I don't any speaker friends close by with the silk/soft domes.
     
  20. Mr Bass

    Mr Bass Chevelle Ma Belle

    Location:
    Mid Atlantic
    30 - 50 Watts. You might try a Jolida 301BRC which is a 30W hybrid integrated amp. It has a tubed preamp and a SS power amp. It is very sweet sounding for SS. It runs $500 new but is fairly common on the used market for $2-300. But ask around for other options.
     
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  21. Might as well try this;
    [​IMG]
    Tissue paper over the tweeter. See if it helps.

    Also, how reflective is the wall directly behind the back of the speakers?

    Read this - "I played the speakers side by side (modded and unmodded). There was a pretty ear-opening gap in the performance. The ti/sonicap Klipsch wasn’t just smoother, it had a brilliantly open soundstage that clearly exceeded the stock by a mile on top. It really amazed me. I modded the second speaker and let them run many hours for break in.

    The sound was as far beyond stock as a NASCAR race car is over a street model. I did not expect to like Klipsch this much. But wait…this isn’t anything Klipsch ever made. These are quartets done right. Stridency, blur and image shift were ameliorated to the point that I forgot these were once midfi horn speakers. It’s like they have been unleashed into a realm of detail and smooth dynamics they never realized from the factory. Nobody that is used to stock Klipsch speakers would be able to deny the amazing transformation. These components elevated these speakers well beyond what they were. They went from pretty good speakers to outstanding. The side by side was as if the stock speakers were under a thick blanket by compare."

    Sounds good doesn't it?

    Read about mods HERE
     
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  22. stay crunchy

    stay crunchy Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Austin-area, Texas
    That's so funny you posted this. I was actually JUST looking at low powered SS and tube amps and came across something like this on the Jolida website not even 5 minutes ago. Thank you, sir.
     
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  23. stay crunchy

    stay crunchy Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Austin-area, Texas
    Thank you, morinix. I've actually read an article, or post describing the same thing for Klipsch horns...tissue paper/toilet paper. Haven't tried it yet, but I will get it a go soon.

    I also just read that EXACT same article last night, and it got me thinking that the recap/ti tweeter upgrade might be exactly what I'll looking for. Then again, a few clicks later, I've also read a few posts claiming the the upgrades (Bob Crites) didn't really do that much. So, I'm not sure what to believe. I would hope that it be a noticeable improvement.

    As for how reflective my wall is, how do I tell? It's painted drywall, so I would guess it's pretty reflective.
     
  24. murphythecat

    murphythecat https://www.last.fm/user/murphythecat

    Location:
    Canada
    Id recommend to recap your speakers but IME, it helps but wont transform your sound. As I said, I had the same klipsh model and even a recap dynaco a25 were bit better. If you truly want good accurate sound, eventually you'll have to change the speakers and your amp. but id begin with the speakers.

    If you have the first reflection points treated, I wouldnt worry about the rest of the treatment right now
     
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  25. Chooke

    Chooke Forum Resident

    Location:
    Perth, Australia
    If your speakers are directing treble energy to a solid wall, a cheaper suggestion which sometimes works with treble harshness is to place some pillows on the wall in front of the speakers (ie behind your head), making sure it is within "line of sight" of the tweeters. I sometimes do that myself when I want to crank up the stereo really loud. If that softens it a bit. If it helps, but you don't want to keep using pillows, it at least points you in the right direction for specific room treatment.

    Longer term, it may be worth your while to invest in a good quality DSP. Properly set up they can work brilliantly.
     
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