Taming harshness/listener fatigue in a room

Out of all the mods I think the tweeter replacement will get the most payoff. Then at least do the caps in the tweeter x-over.

If the wall directly behind the speaker is flat painted drywall then it can be quite reflective. If it is textured then it is not so bad.

 

IMO you just have the wrong rig for high volume metal music. Like others have mentioned, your new room treatments confirmed this.

After installing all of the Crites upgrades to his Cornwwalls, my brother in law and I played some Zeppelin (not exactly Slayer, but still) at high-ish volumes and could not get them to be anything but a shouty fatiguing mess - we tried both a Mac MC2105 and restored Fisher 500b as amplification. He quickly sold them and have since tried Bozak Symphonies, KEF 107's, AR9's and JBL L300s.

Out of those, my preference are the Bozaks or the AR9's on hard rock/metal. They are both by nature more "laid back" sounding speakers, a trait that has a nice way of taming the the upper midrange distortion and hot treble that is often pronounced in that genre of music. I have found the AR9's in particular, when biamped with enough power, to have the unique ability to be both bowel-rattlingly LOUD yet fatigue free. They are very forgiving to poorly mastered material as well - which unfortunately describes a lot of metal on CD.

 

The steps that you took will help deal with the room. Adding bass traps actually increases bass by evening some peaks and nulls. Adding 2X4 panels at the reflection points reduces mid and high frequency reflections.
I think your next step is to evaluate what changed, the room or your expectations?

Also note, the couch cushions are not good bass absorbers. Foam absorbers are built of open cell foam. I would bet the couch cushions are high density closed cell. Also, on this topic, fibers like glass or cotton are better absorbers than open cell foam.

 

I have a friend that added room treatments and he had the same problem as you. It sounded really bad. We listened to it for weeks just to see if it would change it didnt What he did eventually was just take out the room treatments and it sounded better. He came to the conclusion that he would either have to get better gear and pay a bunch of money or just accept how his system sounds. You might wanna ask you self if you are content with you less accurate system or if you can afford switching your gear.

 

Interesting. I will try the pillow approach. I did put one of the acoustic treatments behind my listening position and didn't notice any difference. We'll see. Thanks!

 

Thanks, Kyhl. That's pretty deep..."what changed, the room or your expectations?" I was hoping the panels would clean up the "flub" and tighten things up a bit, which I guess it did. However, I didn't anticipate that the "flub" was masking that much harshness. I had heard some before, especially with CDs, but now it REALLY seems to stand out. As for the couch cushions, well, they're back on the couch now. I just stuck them up there to see how they would work, and I must say that they did. To me, there was a more noticeable difference with them in the corner than without. I will be working on a proper corner bass trap soon.

 

Thanks for sharing your experiences, crestwood23. Do you think it's fair to say that Klipsch speakers (and I guess any brand) work better in some rooms than others? Before I added the acoustic treatments I really enjoyed them, even though I knew that were not the last word in accuracy. I even switched to a pair of JBL L26s that have been recapped, and they brought out the same harshness.

And bowel-rattlingly LOUD (without fatigue, of course) is how I like my METAL! HA!!!!

 

I really appreciate everyone's responses...very much appreciated. Guess I have decisions to make. I think my first step will be to try the Ti tweeter diaphragm upgrade. If it works, fingers crossed, and it smooths out enough of the harshness to something I can live with, then it seems like a minimal investment. If not, well...I guess I'm down $50-60 and won't be buying any new vinyl for a month or so. If that's the case, then I'm not sure yet what my next move would be...upgrading crossovers, selling/buying new speakers, counseling...who knows!

Also, no one has mentioned if diffuser panels would be helpful...so I'm assuming that's a no-go. Is that even an option here? Or is more like, "Dude, your system is #$%$#$% and nothing you put on the walls is gonna help it sound better."

Cheers!

 

Sometimes if the stars align those early reflections that you eliminate with treatment are actually beneficial and help give a more spacious sound. 9.5/10 they will not though and only serve to muddy the sound stage. Maybe your friends room Untreated was one of the .5 :0). It would take the right size room with the right distance from speaker to wall to do it though. There exists specific levels that exist for early reflections to do this. I am of the belief that early reflections are severely damaging and strive to get them at least 20db down for the first 20 milliseconds.

Also keep in mind it has to be done properly to work or else you are just EQing your signal. That requires as even as possible absorption through the range. That means pillows will not do it. Foam certainly will not (may as well not be there below around 200hz), and ditto for most other materials besides common rockwool/insulation and the like 4 inchs thick spaced 4 inches off the wall,minimum. Not always practical,I understand, but acoustics is a science and there is really no short cuts.

 

Try to lend some good quality power cables and see if they work for you. Cured the harshness in my system. The effect may be system dependant (different music taste, different components, etc).

 

Yes, the room is a crucial piece of the puzzle, with certain speakers being a better sonic fit than others.

Another thing you might try is upgrading your amplifier. Horns have a way of revealing graininess and other shortcomings of your amp, especially if it's solid state. Switching to tubes will smooth out that top end, but may reduce the tightness and slam of the bass as well. Since metal is your bag, I'd try to find a higher end class A solid state amp, one that will have both a horn-friendly, more refined top end and retain a solid grip on the woofers.

The Klipsch are very efficient, so you don't need too many watts to drive them, you are looking for quality of watts over quantity.

 

I am known to occasionally to play my music 'scare the neighbors' loud while listening to Sabbath, Priest, Scorpions, BOC, Porcupine Tree....

And gotta say that a lot of the 'crankability' of an artist or album is media dependent - no matter how my room is fixed or components swapped, the specific media in question will dictate whether cotton is needed in the ear canal or suffer the scrunched face of ice pick brightness.

Such is life.

 

Do you have some different speakers that you borrow from a friend or dealer? That would be a good starting point. As others have said, horns can be a problem. Try some speakers with soft domes or planar type tweeters.

 

I have thought about eventually upgrading to tubes in the future, but don't really know where to start. Could you give me some guidelines on what to look for? Should I look for a pre/power/integrated? I have seen some tube amps that are 2 watts and some that are 50 watts, some are "push-pull" and others are SET...I have no idea what any of that stuff means. As for a class A SS, how many watts would I need for the Klipschs?

Thanks again for your time!

 

Yes, I have used my JBL L26s, and they are producing quite a bit of the harshness, too. I have a pair of Focal Chorus 714V for my HT set up. I plan on on trying them out on the vintage receivers this weekend and see how it goes. I will also try the Klipsch out with the Rotel AVR I have for the HT system. Should be interesting. Thanks for your advice!

 

Keep it under 85 or you'll be as deaf as a post in no time. I use 83-85 and find it plenty loud (I listen to black metal no less). I use a cell phone app too ant it's pretty accurate.

This is good advice. I padded that wall with foam and the sound improved leaps and bounds.

Just don't listen to people who blame the Klipschs. Klipsch is THE best thing that's happened to metal; I cannot picture myself owning any other brand. I listened to Mayhem's ¨Grand Declaration Of War¨ today; WOW !! The guitar tone was so spot on !

 

What's your budget? A tube amp that can keep up with the slam of a double kick drum pedal will get expensive.

Given your music and volume preferences, I think your money will go farther with solid state. If you're looking to smooth things out a bit and reduce treble harshness, I would consider an amp with a warmer sonic signature. The Klipsch are efficient, so I don't think you'd need more than 30 quality solid state watts. Maybe a vintage Sansui or Mcintosh integrated, or a Pass Aleph 30 if you want something more refined and modern (would require a preamp though).

You could also pair a solid state power amp (to retain bass slam) with a tube preamp (to smooth out the mids and treble) - all depends on your budget.

 

I would wait until you try the different speakers. If they still have the issue then swap in your other receiver and see what happens.

 

I can't believe no one has asked about your floor. What do you have, hardwood, or worse (for reflections), tile? A rug can go a long way toward taming a bright room.

 

Good point. Is there a coffee table between you and the speakers?

 

Thanks Waxfreak! I love me some BLACK METAL, too!!! What kind of foam did you use? I put one of the acoustic panels back there, but I didn't notice any difference.

 

The floors are a laminate "hardwood" and I put down a thick quilt on the floor where the reflection points are. A little help. There is a coffee table in there, but it's off to the side a bit, not directly in front of my listening position.

 

Hey folks, thought I would provide an update on my "harshness" situation in case anyone else stumbled across this thread in the future and had similar issues. I switched out the Klipsch Quartets a few weeks ago with the Focal Chorus 714Vs in my AV set up. Honestly, I cannot believe the difference--it's like night and day! As soon as I connected the Focals to the Marantz 2270, I finally discovered how warm and smooth that receiver sounded! I've had it about 6-7 months and it always sounded good, but when I cranked it, the horns of the Quartets seemed to overpower everything else. Now the level of "harshness" is minimal and seems to be confined to certain albums rather than everything that I played. The soundstage and imaging is as good, if not outright better, than before. Most surprisingly, the bass output from the little 5.5" drivers of the Focals is close to what the 10" woofers of the Quartets were putting out. In no way does it have the impact and slam that I would prefer, but I really wasn't expecting much. When the Focals were paired with my Rotel in the AV setup, they were crisp and clear but severely lacking in bass, so I added a HSU sub and had been very happy with music and movies.

Interestingly enough, I paired the Quartets with my Rotel and HSU sub in the AV setup. To be fair, I did not adjust any of the Rotel's internal EQ settings or crossovers, etc., because, well, I couldn't figure out how to get into the menu settings with the remote. No clue. So when I hooked them up, it did not sound all that great and seriously needed to be tweaked. However, when I put in some CDs, and turned it up a bit, there came the honk and the harshness yet again, even though the EQ settings made the rest of the music sound muffled. I didn't do much to work on speaker placement or take the time and effort to reconfigure the Rotel's settings; honestly, I turned it off and when back into the other room to listen the the Marantz with the Focals. I do believe the Quartets are good speakers and deserve a chance in the AV setup.

So, I've learned a few things in the past month. I've learned that room acoustics and treatments play a much larger role, for better or worse, then I would have previously believed. I've learned that just because I paid good money for something, that doesn't mean I have to convince myself to like it...my ears will eventually tell my conscience what sounds good and what doesn't. I've also learned that I don't have the best setup for listening to the music I love, and eventually I will upgrade, piece by piece, to satisfy this hobby/addiction/condition...and I'm ok with that. For what it's worth, I do know that I'm much happier now and headed in the right direction. I'd like to thank everyone that took the time to read my posts and offer their advice and experience, especially crestwood23. You guys rock!

 

That's a genuinely helpful post @stay crunchy , thank you. I have a similar problem - harshness in the highs - but there's little I can do by way of room treatments. I've been looking to replace my speakers to see if that would take the edge off and had considered the Focals (a pair of Chorus 705s) but decided against auditioning them on account of a) lack of online user reviews and b) waning interest in auditioning after listening to numerous other speakers. I'm just about to pull the trigger on a pair of Epos K1s but will hold fire for a moment while I seek out the Focals. (For the record, I too use a Pro-Ject table with Ortofon cart: I mention this because I see you're using a Red. When I demoed my table it was fitted with a Red and was rather harsh in the highs. I bought the table anyway because reviewers said it worked very well with more expensive carts, and immediately swapped it out for a Blue. The difference was appreciable although I'm still looking for improvement.)

 

That can be a hard one for sure, it's tough to know you're even doing it sometimes!