Tavish Adagio, Parasound JC3+, JC3 Jr or something else in the $1.5K - $3K

I read that whole thread.

The new JC3 Jr has a gain selector, you can choose 40dB, 50dB or 60dB unbalanced that should attenuate this problem. Unfortunately, the JC3+ is fixed in 48dB, which as you said is too much for a the 2M Black with 5 mV output as the ideal would be 36 dB. The cartridge/preamp is definitely overloading the receiver. The receiver has an "error/over load" signal that turns on except if I press the -6dB attenuator button, then it settles down.

However, I'm not experiencing the problems described in that thread. Except for the loud volume, I'm not experiencing the problems with sound quality the guy was having and explained in detail with his Lyra. For my standards, in my admitedly less than optimal system, sound quality is better than ever. Maybe because MM is less sensitive to this than MC, as stated before in this thread if I'm not mistaken. There are other ways to calculate this relations as stated before in this thread that would recommend higher gain than the KAB numbers.

I don't know what to say, my lack of experience and knowledge stops me here. I still have time to return the JC3+ but I'm not comfortable to make this decision option because I'm loving how it sounds in my system. I was actually ready to buy a Halo integrated to substitute the receiver.

Only problem is how loud it is with headphones and I'm not sure a headphone amp would solve this since the loading problem would be located before it. Maybe I can have a different cartridge/headshell to heaphone listening sessions. I have an eye at the Nagaoka MP-500, which is 3 mV, could be better.

 

The Hana SL can currently be bought for $25 less than an MP-500 with trade-in of a cartridge of any type, in any condition.
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Though I realize that might not be an available option in Brazil.

 

Nor is the MP-500. I'm going to North America in July and to Europe in November. I intend to buy a couple of cartridges and the MP-500 was in my list since last year because of my good experience with the MP-110. The Hana SL could be a great option. @draden1 stated earlier in the thread he used it with JC3+ and enjoys it.

I guess sound degradation because of too much gain depends on the cartridge as @avanti1960 said earlier in the thread (he stated that about MC though). I don't experience this with the 2M Black, I don't know if @mike catucci had used the Black with the JC3+. As I said, only volume is too loud on headphones, that bothers me because I prefer to listen with lower volumes.

 

IMHO, there's a better way of going at it. I'd get rid of the 2M Black and get a nice LOMC cart instead. You'd end up with arguably better sound and wouldn't struggle with way too much unnecessary gain being applied, therefore creating this headphone issue. Just my opinion...

 

I would think too much gain would only be a problem if the receiver/integrated/preamp has too little input impedance. I find that more gain is generally preferable unless the receiving inputs are overloaded, however, I've only owned a couple MC carts.

 

But the 2M Black with 48dB gain (around 1.25V) should still be lower output than most CD players, which are often set to 2V or higher, are you saying that high volume is only a problem when you select the phono source? Or do you use digital connections for other sources? It does seem like an omission not to include any type of gain adjustment capability on such a high end phono preamp, though some circuit topologies do make adding a user gain adjustment very difficult. I also don't think that output level should be an issue with most preamps or integrated amps. Could always just use some quality inline attenuators at the input of the receiver or preamp, I think Rothwell makes some good ones.

 

Any further comments on the Tavish Adagio, or ETAs when it will become available again? I like the design philosophy, but the "one guy in his basement" business model always makes me a bit nervous.

My cart is the Dynavector XX2 MkII with a .28mV output - is that too low for the 48dB gain of the JC3+? What about the Tavish?

 

The 48dB gain is for MM inputs, it has 64dB for MC inputs. The Tavish also has 64dB on the MC inputs with the standard SUT selection, probably more with the optional one.

 

He's got his son down there too!

 

How much would be too little? HINT I'm considering buying has 24 kohms (unbalanced). The Denon I'm using has 47 kohms.

I don't even have a CD player to plug in it. I listen to digital with MacBook > Schiit DAC or I just plug an iPad. In both cases I can reduce volume in the Mac or iPad.

 

Well, the Schitt would be about the same as a standard CD player if you set the volume to 100% (or 0dB) on the audio player. Like most digital products, it has 2V output at 0dB, which is kind of a standard level for digital source products, and hence why most of the time we have much lower volume level when playing records, unless you are someone who believes in using lots of phono stage gain. How loud it plays will of course depend on the vintage of the digital recording, most new ones are quite loud on average, while older ones will typically be much quieter.

So, if you set the volume on the MacBook player to full level (or bit perfect, simulating a CD player on the input), do you have the same issue with the Schitt input, that's all I was getting at, it seems like it would even be louder than your phono source

 

Well, the JC3+ has output impedance of less than 100Ω, and 1V output for 4mV input, so you really shouldn't have an overload problem if you use the most appropriate gain setting for the type of cartridge, even if it's not considered "ideal." If gain levels are really that critical, I would think designers such as John Curl would know to provide more options. In the case of that guy with the Lyra Delos, it appears as though the real culprit might have been a defect in the cart.

 

Got it. Will try when I have a chance, maybe tonight, and report back.

 

I did not unfortunately. Keep the JC3+ especially if you will be buying other carts.

 

I'm going to test your theory this week regarding MC over MM by swapping in my 2M Black and removing the Ania and see which is better. My money is on the Black!

 

I'll be waiting for your thoughts about the 2M Black and the JC3+ working together. I think it's great except too loud to headphones if you prefer to listen in lower volume.

 

You're correct, 48 dB is toooo much for a 5 mV cart. However, not everyone thinks that 36 dB is perfect gain for a 5 mV cart. I (and others) believe that for a
5 mV cart 40 dB is perfect gain, giving you phono output of 500 mV. Empirically, it is also supported by the fact that an average MM cart today is 5 mV, and an average MM phono on the market today has 40 dB of gain.

Regardless of the theoretical part, in practical terms, I think your problem can be remedied by swapping the cart to something with a lower output, instead of sending this great unit back.

At 48 dB gain, you can go with as simple a cart as Denon DL-110 (which you're gonna love), at 1.6 mV the phono will give you 402 mV output - less than what I like (I run mine at 50-51 dB and love it), but certainly in line with what you (and KAB) believe. The cart is $299 in the US, but I bought mine for $190 from 2-juki - a great dealer in Hong Kong. I bought mine from him, and half this forum buys from him, as well, I think, so he is solid. Here's a current link:

Denon DL-110 High Output MC Cartridge, Made by Denon, 100% Brand New from Japan 81757700474 | eBay
epid=1400442661&hash=item41e175366f:g:O~QAAOSwoPpaVebK

Another good choice for this gain level would be Hana EH/SH. Both have 2.0 mV output, which, at 48 dB of gain will give you 502 mV output - perfect! (in my eyes).

The EH is $475, and the lowest Ebay has it is $425 from a dealer in Cyprus (free shipping).

HANA EH High Output MC Moving Coil Cartridge with Stylus ***BRAND NEW*** | eBay


The SH is $750 - about same as 2M Black, the same guy in Cyprus has it for $649:


HANA SH High Output MC Moving Coil Cartridge with Stylus ***BRAND NEW*** | eBay

Good luck!

 

I don't have the JC3 Jr. anymore. Took delivery of a Herron last week. I'm going to test his theory of MC being better than MM.

 

Mike! You so-and-so! Stop buying all the great phono's, or some of us will drown in own saliva!

 

Thank you!

Just to be clear, I don't believe anything. I'm learning. I think the Black being 5 mv sounds great with the JC3+ and its 48dB gain. Through my receiver it's louder than what I would prefer with my Sennheiser HD650, but doesn't sound overloaded and definitely doesn't sound anything like a compressed CD. Sounds beautiful for my standards.

Anyway I will try different carts with lower outputs and I'll consider all your suggestions, thanks again.

 

Let's see, at 48 dB, 5 mV cart produces 1,256 mV - 1.25 V! That sort of voltage shouldn't overload your line section, I mean, line level is 2.0 V. But, as far as phono's go - 1.25 V is HUGE! - Three times (!) the output you would get from the Denon DL-110 - consider that.

 

Generally, I consider the sweet spot in phono output to be 500 mV, and try to tailor the cart/phono combination to get that result. I will run 5.0 mV cart into 40 dB gain, 4.0 mV into 43 dB, 3.3 - 3.5 mV into 46 dB, 1.6 - 2.0 into 50-51 dB, 0.3 mV into 66 db, 0.4 mV into 62 dB. Some +/- tolerances are acceptable, but my general benchmark is 500 mV.

 

I'm sorry. I took one for the team so I can provide a review on this animal for future tire kickers to use as a sort of benchmark That and I had to quench that lust for the ultimate in stages in my price category (although I think this Herron would suffice at any price point, it is that good)

 

I never did any cartridge output/phono gain calculations before getting the Adagio for my London Reference cartridge which outputs 5mv. I just assumed off the bat that most any MM stage gain would work fine with that robust of an output. And at the Adagio's 44dB gain, it seems just about perfect.

 

Against the Ania, my money's also on the 2M Black. Rega carts don't enjoy a tremendous reputation as upgrades. They come bundled with Rega turntables but most people tend to venture outside of Rega when upgrading carts. Can't think of a single Rega cart I'd buy, to tell you the truth.

Maybe the Ania will surprise us but I wouldn't judge MC carts based solely on how the Ania will perform. We'll see how you like it, won't we?