technically speaking, what is 'fake' stereo? (Duophonic, Electronically Re-processed, etc.)*

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by daveman, Dec 21, 2003.

  1. Arkoffs

    Arkoffs Ricky's valet

    It's interesting that they kept tinkering with the Hendrix Smash Hits. At least they eventually ditched the bad version.
     
  2. Larry Geller

    Larry Geller Surround sound lunatic

    Location:
    Bayside, NY
    Could you please document the differences?
     
  3. Gordon Johnson

    Gordon Johnson Forum Resident

    Location:
    Liverpool, South
    that would require a lot of my time, right now i can't afford this issue that time.

    my old records are now incomplete and a little less than accurate. it would be a major task to run thru' all of this material and i have a couple of other things on the go right now.
     
  4. Larry Geller

    Larry Geller Surround sound lunatic

    Location:
    Bayside, NY
    Too bad, because, as far as I know, there are only 2 stereo variations: The original Track, which is all rechannelled, and the 1974 or so Polydor reissue, which is real stereo, except for Stars, Red House, Stone Free, 51st Anniversary, Highway Child & Remember. That's it. What other variations were there?
     
  5. Gordon Johnson

    Gordon Johnson Forum Resident

    Location:
    Liverpool, South
    clearly not ......................

    Arkoffs said:
    OK. Listening to this UK Polydor Hendrix Smash Hits. It's all fake stereo ... trebley left channel, bassy (and very dead sounding) right channel. Looking at the deadwax, it does appear to have old stamper numbers scratched out. Perhaps someone can confirm whether these match the old, bad "stereo" Track pressing:

    Side A: Machine stamped 6 13004A B (preceding has a line drawn through it) 1 1 1 2 4. Above that is a hand-etched 2310268A
    Side B: machine stamped 6 13004B (line thru it) 1 1 backwards 1 9. to the left of that is a hand etched 2310268B


    this is what i was replying to, we have a number of polydor issues from germany. holland and the uk, all of which differ one way or another.
     
  6. Michael P

    Michael P Forum Resident

    Location:
    Parma, Ohio
    Nothing on Peppers was Duophonic (or any other fake stereo)! The mono Peppers was a dedicated mix that some say is superior to the stereo. Unfortunately Capitol deleted all mono titles from their catalog around 1968 (the year I began buying records). It's the first Beatles album to be exactly the same on both UK & US versions.

    (Please forgive me if this was already covered in this thread. I'm responding to a post from page 5. This thread is now at page 10)
     
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  7. EdogawaRampo

    EdogawaRampo Forum Resident

    Well, I myself would like to know if a "Duophonic" record simply had a bass bias / treble bias rather than all the time-delay and other effects. If it's just a EQ bias for each channel, that might sum to mono satisfactorily and maybe even save Duophonic in nice shape from hitting the trash bin.

    Of course, I don't know who is going to start check all the "Duos" to find that out.

    It would be worth it to know for The Beach Boys, though, if you could sum a Duo into a decent mono sound. I guess there's still the issue of extra added reverb...I want a Beach Boys mono vinyl box to go with The Beatles.
     
  8. EdogawaRampo

    EdogawaRampo Forum Resident

    There were mass deletions in 1968, mono and stereo. Times were a'changin'. The Beach Boys catalog got savaged, Jan & Dean's was deleted except for a single LP IIRC (out of more than a dozen Lps I think) and I'm sure lots of pre-Beatles material suddently became 'uncool' and not worth keeping in print. Huge overhaul took place.
     
  9. Michael P

    Michael P Forum Resident

    Location:
    Parma, Ohio
    BTW I too have that Pickwick Beach Boys GV album. The reprocessing was NOT Duophonic, and sounded different than the same songs on a Capitol Duophonic release. I also discovered that the Pickwick GV album is essentially "The Best of The Beach Boys Vol.3" sans 2 tracks (IIRC "Frosty The Snowman" and "Surfin"). Typical budget label practice was to cut back a couple of tracks from an original mainline label release.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2014
  10. Michael P

    Michael P Forum Resident

    Location:
    Parma, Ohio
    Just about every Turtles song has a true stereo mix existing, somewhere. The problem is many CD versions have "revisionist" stereo mixes that are so narrow they might as well have been pure mono. Case in point "You Don't Have to Walk in the Rain" is one of those revised mixes. On just about any Turtles comp CD out there it sounds like mono. The reality is that song first appeared in W I D E - S T E R E O on the "Turtle Soup" LP which I bought in a cutout bin. I ended up doing my own needle drop just to get this song in the original stereo. The mix matches earlier stereo mixes, especially the songs off "Battle of the Bands". Only their first album (during their folk-rock phase) is better heard in mono. The stereo mix of the first album appears to have been influenced by the mixes found on The Beatles Please Please Me album (i.e. 2 track vocal/instrument split). Fortunately they had better stereo mixes after the first album.
     
  11. Michael P

    Michael P Forum Resident

    Location:
    Parma, Ohio
    There is a Wikipedia entry explaining the patented Duophonic process. No Duophonic record could sum to mono cleanly. A prime example is "Ticket to Ride" off the U.S. mono "Help" soundtrack. The mono album was a fold down of the stereo (probably due to the extensive editing that was done on the instrumental tracks). For the life of me I can't understand how Capitol cold get the true stereo mixes for every Beatles track form the movie except for the biggest hit on the album. A stereo mix existed in the UK, but Capitol could not wait, I guess.
     
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  12. Gordon Johnson

    Gordon Johnson Forum Resident

    Location:
    Liverpool, South
    Here are a few of the deadwax details I recorded a while back.
    • SMASH HITS POLYDOR SUPER 2310 268 STEREO (ENHANCED FOR STEREO) (2310268 A//2 IB 122 [SCRATCHED, MELYS + BOB J.M.H. LIVES] & 2310268 B//2 IB 122 [SCRATCHED, MELYS + BOB J.M.H. LIVES])
    • SMASH HITS POLYDOR SUPER 2310 268 STEREO (ENHANCED FOR STEREO) (Very faintly scratched at the start - 2310268 A THEN STAMPED 613004 A (B SCRATCHED OUT) s 115 2 & Very faintly scratched at the start - 2310268 B THEN STAMPED 613004 B//(3 SCRATCHED OUT) 6 11 24).
    • SMASH HITS POLYDOR SUPER ACB 219 STEREO (ENHANCED FOR STEREO) (ACB219 A//2s42004 11 & ACB 00219 [2310268 SCRATCHED OUT] B//3 420 05 1101)
    • SMASH HITS POLYDOR SPELP 15 RE-PRESSING 2310 268 (SPELP15 A// 1s420W 11 [PP SCRACHED IN] & SPELP15 B// 1s420W 11)
    • SMASH HITS POLYDOR 184 138 (GERMAN) 184 138 (613004 A s 1 & 184 138 B 613004 B s4 [S ON IT'S SIDE] 13) (NOTE. STATES STEREO AND 613 004 0N LABEL)
    • SMASH HITS POLYDOR STEREO (JAPANESE) SMP-1413 (613004 A s 1 ? SMP-1413A & 613004 B s 4SMP-1413B) Note this is a mono enhanced for stereo pressing.

    • and for good measure the Track pressings
    • SMASH HITS TRACK 613004 STEREO (ENHANCED FOR STEREO) 613004 A (B SCRATCHED OUT) s 1 11 14 & 613004 B//[3 SCRATCHED OUT] 6 11)
    • SMASH HITS TRACK 612004 MONO (612004 A s 2 & 612004 B s 2 )
    Not a exhaustive list as I have more that are not recorded here.

    • Note: what are showing as s are in fact upside down triangles but are failing to show as that here.
     
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  13. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    Location:
    Marysville, WA
    A little something for my fellow nerds, so please bear with me....

    dh4k0h.jpg
    (photo from @Jskoda -- thanks!)

    The Capitol "soundtrack" album for the 1957 Columbia Pictures film Pal Joey is an odd duck.
    •Some selections are actually from the soundtrack, and were recorded in multitrack at Columbia Pictures, even though there was no stereo release of the film to theatres.
    •"The Lady is a Tramp" was recorded in mono-only for a different album project at Capitol before Sinatra was even signed for the film project, and, even though it differs significantly from the version that appears in the film, that 1956 Capitol version appears on the "soundtrack" album.
    •There were three numbers that Sinatra chose to re-record after film versions were in the can, (these new "soundtrack" versions appeared on the LP in place of the true soundtrack versions) and those re-records were recorded at Capitol in August of 1957, again in mono only, even though Capitol was already recording many session in 3-track by this point.
    •"I Didn't Know What Time It Was," on the other hand, was a Sinatra number that actually made it from the Columbia Pictures recording stage to the Capitol soundtrack LP "as is" when the album was released, mono-only, October 14, 1957. No re-record was done.

    Apparently for the recorded-at-Columbia numbers, Capitol was provided a two-track tape by Columbia Pictures, with the plan being that Capitol could then balance the instruments and vocals to their own tastes, with the track layout being a very simple one: Instruments on one track; vocals on the other track. Great for making a simple mono mix.

    At some point a couple of years after the mono LP release, Capitol decided to issue a DUOPHONIC version of the Pal Joey soundtrack album, but on the rear cover there are several songs listed with an * by their title, and those numbers are *"in stereo"........ sort of. All of the "recorded at Capitol" tracks that Sinatra did are presented here in 100% Duophonic sound, but on those "recorded at Columbia Pictures" selections, rather than just take the old mono mixes from the 1957 mono LP, Capitol went back to those 2-track tapes that were used to create those mixes -- the 2-track tapes that have instruments on one track and vocals on the other -- and made "stereo" mixes. Now, they could have done 1963 Beatles-style stereo mixes, with instruments hard left and vocals hard right, but instead, they made mixes that had the vocal track centered and had JUST the instrumental backing track processed into Duophonic.

    Reminder: The Duophonic process involved a slight time difference between left and right and some degree of filtering that would make some frequencies in the spectrum lean left and others lean right.

    Here's how the first 30 seconds of this track sound "in stereo": https://app.box.com/s/fo9p9hnhx19snrs7zmcfot9yqfn8a3uv

    The piano has a bit of a hazy/phasey quality to it (not awful), but the vocal is absolutely anchored and "unfutzed" (EQ aside).

    Next, here's that same passage summed to mono: https://app.box.com/s/r2ssq78zkt1sfnwgbnwtrcaydq17dlmn

    Notice how the vocal still sounds a-okay, but the piano now has a bothersome "piano in a cave" effect, caused by the time delay and comb filtering. The vocal, NOT being Duophonic-processed, does not suffer.

    So...the instrumental tracks are out of sync due to Duophonic processing, but the vocals are not Duophonic-processed. How about if we manually (approximately) re-sync the out-of-sync left and right instrumental tracks, then sum to mono? Here's how that sounds: https://app.box.com/s/zdj6advv5sf32g8x2ad7pmzg7vbfgmt4

    Now, the instrumental track sounds (more-or-less) un-futzed, and the "cave effect" has moved to the vocal track.

    Not really stereo, not quite Duophonic. Hybrid-ophonic, maybe??? I dunno. Weird stuff going on, but kinda cool to check out from a techie standpoint, at least to me.

    As @Steve Hoffman would say, "This is for the three people who find this interesting!"
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2015
  14. oxenholme

    oxenholme High Quality Posts™ a speciality

    The author, Larry and myself!
     
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  15. oxenholme

    oxenholme High Quality Posts™ a speciality

    Meanwhile, much to my delight, the Analogue Productions The Beach Boys Little Deuce Coupe SACD mastered by Kevin Gray contains 409 in glorious duophonic...

    Will I Get Around on All Summer Long be duophonic too?
     
  16. Larry Geller

    Larry Geller Surround sound lunatic

    Location:
    Bayside, NY
    They never were. Both (I Get Around and All Summer Long) were only mono.
     
  17. MickAvory

    MickAvory Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Orleans, LA
    I'm really interested in this Pal Joey issue also.. I've got the same (sort of) Duophonic LP with the sticker like in the above post. I've also got a mono copy. Time to pull them out and give a listen.
     
  18. slane

    slane Forum Resident

    Location:
    England
    Interesting stuff.

    As to what I'd call it - if it requires more than a mono source (2 tracks or more) to create the mix, it's 'true stereo' for me.
     
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  19. oxenholme

    oxenholme High Quality Posts™ a speciality

    Not on the UK LP they weren't... True duophonic. And on the Pastmaster CD I Get Around is duophonic.
     
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  20. Rfreeman

    Rfreeman Forum Resident

    Location:
    Lawrenceville, NJ
    Giles Martin said in an interview that he used this technique to create 5.1 versions of the mono tracks (She Loves You, I Wanna Be Your Man, Don't Bother Me - maybe others I am forgetting) for the recent BluRay of AHDN.
     
  21. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    Location:
    Marysville, WA
    There have been many CD releases of old 78s played back in (for instance) reverberant churches, with the reverb picked up by mics and piped back in.
     
  22. Joel1963

    Joel1963 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Montreal
    I can remember them being Duophonic on the North American All Summer Long as well. As I've written before, Capitol was rather inconsistent with mono recordings on stereo Beach Boys albums, 409 being Duo on Little Deuce Coupe but A Young Man Is Gone was straight mono on the same album. Why Do Fools Fall in Love and Denny's Drums were straight mono on Shut Down Vol. 2, but while I Get Around and All Summer Long were Duo on All Summer Long, the spoken-word Our Favorite Recording Sessions was mono. And later, the spoken word Bull Session With the Big Daddy was Duo on Beach Boys Today.
     
  23. Joel1963

    Joel1963 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Montreal
    There's also the bizarre true stereo Shangri-Las song Give Him A Great Big Kiss, as issued on a '70s K-Tel-like comp, sounds like an underdub with a completely different last part — with the lyrics "hey baby, the butcher, the baker, the candlestick maker, he's everything," and not the "How does he dance? Close, very close" version.
     
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  24. JP Christian

    JP Christian Forum Resident

    The true stereo versions of Give Him A Great Big Kiss I have heard which I assume are modern recreations, sound like they have tried to sync different elements together and the results are far from perfect!
     
  25. Marc Perman

    Marc Perman Forum Resident

    Location:
    West of the Hudson
    I have an Australian purple label vinyl 2-fer with duophonic Pets Sounds and Smiley Smile that I quite like, definitely the most vivid (in a good sense) fake stereo I've heard.
     

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