Technics 1200G or Linn Sondek LP12

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Airbus, Feb 16, 2018.

  1. Classicrock

    Classicrock Senior Member

    Location:
    South West, UK.
    That digital phono stage is another zero mark. They expect buyers of an expensive analogue product to be converting the sound to digital and run through one of their preamp/streamer products. Let's face it there are a number of alternatives for less including my Orbe/SME/NVA combo for about a third the price. What hi-fi reviewed the top Roksan TT combo and thought it as good for half the money. Also as pointed out these alternatives don't have issues with staying in tune and requirement for ' expert dealers' to set up (though they need some skill and experience).
     
  2. John

    John Senior Member

    Location:
    Northeast
    I haven't heard the 1200G but have heard the earlier versions of the 1200. I had a friend that had a '1200 museum' with no less than 3 MKIIs. Two were always in play with a third off to the side being fitted for yet another different cartridge to audition, and other versions would filter thru from time to time. Very nice table, but it never captivated me.

    At the time I had never heard a Linn, but when I heard one with a Lingo I was sold. I felt there was a more organic nature and nuance about the sound, and a rhythmic component that pulled me into the music a bit more.

    So I bought one, and it was not easy to find something the Linn liked to sit on, but eventually a cheap IKEA Lack table fit the bill in my room. It's been seeing regular use since.

    I was fortunate enough to buy the turntable new back in 1999. By this I mean there were less choices and the configuration that worked for me was easy to decide on, a Lingo, Circus, Trampolin, with an Akito arm, and an Afromosia plinth. Not top of the line, but that's what sounded the most natural to me.

    Now it's a bit more difficult to hear all the versions because there are so many, but its still possible and I have listened to all the new bits as they have been released. Much to my surprise, I like exactly what I have.

    So my recommendation would be a used version of what I have. Last time at the dealer a used one like mine was $3500-4K or so. This was several years ago, so whether that price has gone up or down, I don't know.

    While certainly not plug and play like the 1200, I've not had any issues with it being fussy or going out of adjustment. I have owned it 19 years and every 5 years or so it goes back to the dealer for a new belt and some minor chassis tweaks, which always produces a small but noticeable improvement to the sound. I also had a new set of springs installed around the 12 year mark. Other than that the dealer didn't care for the 'feel' of the start/stop switch about 4 years in, replaced it, and its still in regular use to this day. After the swap I have to agree the replacement switch has a more positive feel about it.

    If you are at all interested in comparing the 1200G to the LP12, I don't think it would take more than a few minutes to decide what camp you are in, no agonizing will be required! Best of luck in your search.
     
  3. puroagave

    puroagave Forum Resident

    Location:
    So. California
    I've spent spent significant time with the Technics over the years including the recent 120oG and the much respected SP10 MkIII. Presently I don't own a Technics, the only DD table in my stable stays in the closet (Denon DP80) . To my ears the Technics may be faultless in the 'perfect pitch' dept but they're kinda boring in other depts. There's a sameness I hear on every recording that diminishes the flow, 'fire' and sense of live performers in my room I hear with my tables. I currently have four high end vinyl rigs: a Versa Dynamics 2.0, Basis Ovation/Graham Phantom and two LP12s. The Basis is for sale the Versa will at some point hit the auction block but I'll always keep at least one Linn (the highest spec of the two).
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2018
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  4. Newton John

    Newton John Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cumbria, UK
    These objections are entirely spurious.

    In the first instance, the digital phono stage is not compulsory!

    It is true that A/B comparison shows it to be better than Linn’s current analogue equivalent. Nonetheless, buyers who dissent for whatever reason are free to use a Klimax LP12 with an analogue phono stage, Linn or otherwise, if they so wish.

    The digital option has the further advantage of more accurately matching other manufacturers’ cartridges.

    Secondly, there’s nothing to stop buyers using analogue preamps if that is their preferred option. However, Linn stopped making their analogue preamps because they found that digital preamps sound better even with analogue sources. Also analogue preamps are an unnecessary expensive for anyone with the appropriate DSM.

    Those who disagree with Linn’s view on the benefit of converting the analogue signal to digital in order preserve its integrity are able to continue using the LP12 with analogue equipment.
     
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  5. Newton John

    Newton John Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cumbria, UK
    Nothing sad about that. He’s a fortunate man to have both options available to him.
     
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  6. Drewan77

    Drewan77 Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK/USA
    Having heard the Anniversary LP12/digi phono I entirely agree with this.

    The highest quality DSP can create a realism & transparency that the cynics & doubters need to experience before commenting. Whatever digital artefacts are undoubtedly present are so insignificant as to be undetectable.
     
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  7. Newton John

    Newton John Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cumbria, UK
    That’s what dealers are for. My local dealer has excellent demo rooms and sells both turntables. I’ll be very surprised if there’s not someone similar in your nearest big town/city.
     
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  8. Randoms

    Randoms Aerie Faerie Nonsense

    Location:
    UK
    Thank you!

    For family reasons I haven't used a turntable for over a decade, but still being a LP12 owner even if it is stripped down, follow developments and speak to dealer friends. Of all the steps that Linn have taken to get a better sounding system, to me this is the most controversial.

    Whatever your opinion of Linn, they are a manufacturer with a great deal of experience of both vinyl and digital replay, and one of the most iconic analogue sources, the LP12, sounds better, and produces a more accurate sound, digitalised at the earliest opportunity. As @Newton John mentioned, most people, even analogue diehards, are surprised at the improvement that the Urika II brings.

    In simple terms, the advantages that digitising brings, outweighs the strength of a pure analogue system. Having not heard a Urika II, I was hoping that people with great systems, who have listened with an open mind would comment.

    On other threads, one being about using a digital source, I mentioned that in their top system, Linn digitised the LP12 at the earliest opportunity, and kept the signal in digital until using digital active crossovers, with time alignment and room correction, allowing better, and more accurate sound. It was met by a lot of understandable negativety, and for those who wanted the best sound, which they believe to be only achievable with an all analogue system, laughter and a typical response of "never in my system, digital is crap!"

    Linn have a very long tradition of analogue active systems, but have done an amazing amount of R&D, and introduced some interesting digital sources. Anyone interested should look up Linn Kivor.

    It is fascinating that some intelligent people, whose goal is the accurate reproduction of music in the home, will not consider listening to a system that implements DSP. Going back to Linn, do people honestly believe that they would invest so much time and money, if they didn't believe they were achieving a better sound?

    Having their own artists, studio monitors, complete vinyl and digital systems, available to play their own LPs and Studio Masters, Linn have a far better idea than most, of how the music should sound.

    Just maybe Audiophiles don't want accurate sound after all!
     
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  9. Randoms

    Randoms Aerie Faerie Nonsense

    Location:
    UK
    I was going to respond to this, but without first hand experience, it would only be hearsay.

    So, on demonstration, people have not found the digital phono stage to be a zero mark!
     
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  10. Randoms

    Randoms Aerie Faerie Nonsense

    Location:
    UK
    So, would your dealer allow you to take any turntable you wanted to compare to their demonstration models?
     
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  11. Newton John

    Newton John Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cumbria, UK
    Yes. He's an enthusiast and previously a customer at a hifi shop offered a job by the then owner. He'd be curious to know the outcome of any comparison. If you had a turntable he'd never heard before, he'd want find out how it sounds.
     
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  12. Newton John

    Newton John Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cumbria, UK
    To me the digital Urika II sounded smoother and more refined than than the analogue Urika I. In fact, it sounded more like what I would think of as an analogue sound. The difference was easy to hear.

    The only person I know who has one is a retired school teacher who is a strictly vinyl only man. He likes it very much.

    It has to be said that this is necessarily in the context of a Linn system with digital preamp. It's not an option for anyone who prefers an analogue preamp.

    The Linn philosophy appears to be that the analogue signal is delicate in comparison to the robust digital signal. Contrary to our intuition about such things, transferring the functions of phono stage, preamp and crossover to the digital domain results in a considerable improvement in sound quality. As you have said, it is better to rely on what we hear rather than our preconceptions.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2018
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  13. tzh21y

    tzh21y Forum Resident

    Location:
    Buffalo
    I listened to a fully maxed out Linn a few years ago and I will say that I would prefer the 1200g to it. Thats about 20k vs. 4K. Whats better.... everything. The 1200G immediacy and faithfulness to the recording is really an amazing feat. Listening to Jazz ensembles and the left hand on that piano is just, well I am not sure I have ever heard the accuracy as displayed on a 1200G. I cannot even imagine how the sp 1000 or sp 10R or whatever they are named must sound like... probably the best turntables ever created would be my bet. The Linn sounded good as it should but it homogenized music where many recordings sound similar where the Technics really gets out of the way in that regard. I find many belt drives to have that effect on the sound. I actually liked the VPI Scout in many ways better than the Linn. Overall the Linn was better than the scout but I mean, thats a big difference in cost.
     
  14. tzh21y

    tzh21y Forum Resident

    Location:
    Buffalo
    I have read that people think that the difference is the Ekos. I actually think that the Ekos is the weak part of the Linn.
     
  15. Agitater

    Agitater Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto
    My experience with several different levels of LP12 has been very, very different from yours. In my experience, a carefully set up SL1200G is only a few notches in resolution, clarity and presentation below a reference quality turntable. It is not an SP10, which is Technics’ absolute reference quality DD turntable. The Technics SL1200G tonearm is very, very good without a doubt, but to raise the 1200G ‘bar’ to basic reference quality, the tonearm has to be upgraded. It’s the only thing, IMO, that separates the 1200G from the sweet spot of the high-end. That said, stock tonearm and all, I won’t give up my SL1200G because it is absolutely the most versatile and. Easy to use/maintain turntable/arm combination I’ve ever owned.

    What the SL1200G has over a stock LP12 Majik is notable. The remarkable Technics direct drive system is measurably and sometimes audibly more accurate and stable over a wide variety of operating conditions than the Majik. The LP12 Akurate (or a Majik with a Lingo upgrade) comes so close to 1200G speed accuracy and stability that any barely measurable differences are inconsequential and largely inaudible. I have an upgraded Majik sitting right next to my SL1200G right now. The two presentations are different, but to me and to the three music hounds who’ve heard the Mjik since I assembled, set up and installed it last week, the two presentations are wonderful.

    A very good friend has for years now had a Transrotor Dark Star Reference. In 2016 he purchased an LP12 Klimax to anchor a gorgeous, second system. Again, comparing those two turntable/arm/cartridge combinations (Lyra carts on both arms) the presentations are notably different but equally superb. Both turntables are absolutely reference quality, and standards against which all other reference level turntables must compete. The SL1200G, as wonderfully good as it is at $4,000, is simply not in the same class of resolution, dynamics, clarity and presentation. You need a lot of supporting components and a very good listening room to get the best out of any of the high-end, reference quality turntables.

    What we do get from the SL1200G with a really good cartridge installed (e.g., right now I’m running alternating between a Soundsmith Aria dual coil mono and an Ortofon SPU GM MKII mono) is a uniquely mature, highly refined direct drive presentation that to my ears is irresistible. It’s not the basic reference level of a professionally setup Akurate and it’s not the reference standard of a Klimax, but it certainly has the basic reference level in view.

    Just as important - actually more important to many audiophiles - a careful 12-year-old can set up the 1200G out of the box. Not so with the Majik, Akurate or Klimax out of the box - not by a long shot. To get the best and most consistent performance out of a Majik, Akurate of Klimax, a Linn factory-suppplied setup jig that authorized dealers have (or a dead plane and dead level homemade one like mine) is absolutely needed. In addition, IMO the hands-on experience of setting up at least two prior LP12 turntables is also needed.

    While I can’t remember how each LP12 turntable I’ve ever heard actually sounded with whatever cartridge was installed and in each of the different listening rooms, I for sure remember that four of the eight (or so) LP12 setups I’ve heard regularly over the years were initially messed up and had to be completely redone. IIRC, two dealers messed up the setups and two owners messed up the setups. What helps place the SL1200G in a totally separate category is the fact that the factory fully assembles and tests the turntable so that new owners can be ready to play music 15 minutes after opening the box. Even if you’re an experienced LP12 technician, it takes a couple of hours to setup a new Majik perfectly (and that’s after noting that the factory installed motor and factory tuned suspension has been done for you these days - just don’t add a heavy platter mat to either a stock Majik or a stock Akurate and don’t use a heavy cartridge on the Pro-ject 9cc tonearm supplied with the Majik). By my estimate, 75% of all people who set up a Majik or Akurate at home for the first time manage to screw up the installation of the arm board. I mean, what’s with those tiny (#4?), short screws to initially secure the arm board before tonearm installation? Feh! Many, many audiophiles setting up a Majik or Akurate also screw up the motor angle adjustment and have to redo it because the drive belt path is wrong. Many, many audiiophiles setting up a Majik or Akurate also screw up the tonearm installation, don’t tighten fasteners correctly (either over-tightening or under-tightening), and end up with a dull sounding turntable that has to be re-done by an experienced Linn tech.

    For anybody with any experience doing setups, the SL1200G is by far the simpler experience. Getting to your music faster is for many audiophiles also the way to kick off long-term, trouble free, tuning-free and tweaking-free enjoyment.

    It has to be said too that many audiophiles love and engage with the experience of purchasing and setting up a Majik or an Akurate. They dive into the project with a vengeance and come out the other end secure in the knowledge that they know every aspect of their new turntable - how it works, why it functions the way it does, how all the different subsystems work together. For many audiophiles, that’s an experience that is not avilable to them with an SL1200G. It’s an experience that was only partially available through KAB (and a few other sources) for the older generations of SL1200.

    As for comparative mystique, the LP12 and the SL1200 are equally storied and venerated by their respective adherents. There are just as many LP12 plinth makers as there are SL1200 plinth makers and SP10 plinth makers. If I was going to compare any Technics direct drive to an LP12 Klimax, it would be the equally reference quality SP10.
     
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  16. Newton John

    Newton John Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cumbria, UK
    I am not at all surprised to encounter someone who prefers the sound of a much cheaper turntable to a Klimax level LP12. At an A/B demo of Klimax and Akurate level LP12s I attended recently, one guy preferred the sound of the lower level turntable. Everybody present agreed there was a world of difference between them but that guy preferred the cheaper version. If that is how he hears it, it's fine by me.

    A more pertinent comparison would be of the Pioneers and VPI with similarly priced versions of the LP12. A wise buyer would listen for him/herself and disregard the opinions of others.
     
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  17. JoeSmo

    JoeSmo SL1200 lover....

    Location:
    Maidstone
    Couldn’t agree more but concede I may never have had my LP12 set up properly after having read Agitaters excellent post above.
     
  18. Classicrock

    Classicrock Senior Member

    Location:
    South West, UK.
    Get a belt drive turntable that can be set up more easily and reliably. Orbe / SME, Roksan Xerxes 10, Notts Dias. I'm sure any of these with a high end cartridge and phono stage would run the Klimax package close for a lot less money.
     
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  19. Newton John

    Newton John Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cumbria, UK
    Sorry, I meant Technics not Pioneer - not sure where I got that from.

    My point is I wouldn't start with the premise that one make or type of design belt/direct must be better than other because someone on the internet says so. Just listen for yourself - only you know what you like so don't let anyone else tell you what you should prefer.
     
  20. Agitater

    Agitater Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto
    Your experience is again very different from mine. The Linn Ekos tonearm has in my experience been the price and performance sweet spot in the Linn tonearm lineup since the Ekos was first released. It has a lovely set of bearings, lovely performance, excellent construction quality, and it’s versatile because of it’s compatibility with a lot of different quality cartridges. The Ekos arm is well-liked in general, so it’s unfortunate that your experience with it was unsatisfactory. I think it’s the equal of the SL1200G tonearm, and may be very slighty better in some respects. But that’s a bit of a toss-up which is actually a tribute to the high quality of SL1200G tonearm, an arm that I think works so well with the SL1200G that the overall performance of the table, right out of the box, is astonishingly good at the price.

    By comparison, for an Ekos to perform well on a LP12 Majik or Akurate, somebody who is experienced with the process has to set up and tune the turntable. Without that extra experience and associated setup effort, an LP12 is likely to sound no better than a run-of-the-mill record player. The careful assembly, set up, tuning and adjustment is what we buy into when we purchase an LP12 - it’s part of the experience.. An SL1200G just works perfectly right out of the box. Different experiences for different audiophiles.

    Whatever.

    What was wrong with the Ekos in your system?
     
  21. Linto

    Linto Mayor of Simpleton

    LP12, but you are comparing two extremely different things. 1200s don't do music to me, lack emotion.
     
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  22. Agitater

    Agitater Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto
    It has always been surprising to me how each of us can honestly react to the exact same product in remarkably different ways. I guess that why all those companies make all those different turntables.

    Comparing two different things is precisely the point of making a comparison. The relative and comparative merits of one will be preferable to the other depending on what each person values most. There are no absolutes in any of this.
     
  23. punkmusick

    punkmusick Amateur drummer

    Location:
    Brazil
    Have you tried different torque settings in your G? They provide very distinct sound presentations in the GR.
     
  24. Agitater

    Agitater Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto
    I have not yet tried different torque settings on my G. What differences have you heard at different torque settings?
     
  25. punkmusick

    punkmusick Amateur drummer

    Location:
    Brazil
    Aside from different motor, torque, platter, arm etc. as you know, the GR also has a different torque adjustment mechanism. It has three positions, high, medium and low, and comes from the factory at the highest. Lowering it, I noticed less treble, more bass and a smoother presentation. The best way I can describe it is with a metaphor: the higher the torque, the more the music jumps from the speakers; the lower the torque, the more it flows.
     

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