Technics 1200G or Linn Sondek LP12

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Airbus, Feb 16, 2018.

  1. Agitater

    Agitater Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto
    Good description!

    I think that I haven’t gotten around to motor torque settings because I’m still experimenting with cartridges. The time will come.
     
    H8SLKC and punkmusick like this.
  2. misterdecibel

    misterdecibel Bulbous Also Tapered

    When I've been in the presence of real instruments playing in a room, I usually notice more "jump" than "flow".
     
    Halloween_Jack and H8SLKC like this.
  3. Azura

    Azura Felis silvestris grampia, factum ex trabibus ferro

    Location:
    Scotland East
    I am surprised at these comments (not yours specifically) about the need for solid floors and the like. I live in a conversion with the original floorboards which creak when even the cat walks over them. Add to that I am big and noy always gentle and my Linn should be jumping all over the place, but it doesn't. What am I doing right? Might be my table, spiked at floor level and under the turntable shelf. And, this is the third flat where I have used it without any issues.

    I got a Lingo in part so I didn't have to use the adapator but as I usually play singles in sessions I think I actually preferred it to the switch. I get bored waiting for it to turn green. With the adaptor you just start it and by the time you put the record on it was up to speed.
     
    Randoms likes this.
  4. Azura

    Azura Felis silvestris grampia, factum ex trabibus ferro

    Location:
    Scotland East
    I think that is what put people off doing it. There was a lot of interest amongst the tweakers round here as it was looked upon as being a cheap way of getting an arm thought to be as good as an Ittok.
     
    Randoms likes this.
  5. Randoms

    Randoms Aerie Faerie Nonsense

    Location:
    UK
    I've actually only known one LP12 jump because of a totally loose floorboard, and personally believe there is a lot of misinformation (bordering on lies and hatred) towards Linn. Because of the negative comments of a few, some have given up replying or tread (pun intended) very carefully.

    Interesting way of achieving 45! I still have the adaptor from my pre-Lingo days, but basically left the LP12 running permanently, including hitting the button for 33/45.
     
    Azura likes this.
  6. Randoms

    Randoms Aerie Faerie Nonsense

    Location:
    UK
    That's what I thought! However listening between the Rega RB300 and Linn Basik Plus, didn't hear that out. When I bought the Ittok, it was a good improvement.

    I haven't heard the more recent Rega arms, and people are free to try for themselves, maybe buying a second hand plinth to notch. I don't know if any Linn dealers have done this.

    Although I miss my time in Hi-Fi retail, in some ways it is good to escape the nonsense that went with it.
     
    Azura likes this.
  7. Azura

    Azura Felis silvestris grampia, factum ex trabibus ferro

    Location:
    Scotland East
    I don't think anybody round here actually did it.

    I usually avoided the local shop on the Saturday afternoon demos but for all the talk of Linn fanboys I don't recall anyone ever buying pair of Linn Index speakers...
     
    Randoms likes this.
  8. cre009

    cre009 Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Bristol, UK
    The very occasional problem with sprung turntables skipping badly is often down to harmonic/acoustic resonance where the natural bounce from floorboards or wherever else the turntable is located interferes with and resonates with the bounce of the suspension. Usually cured by relocating the turntable or fine adjustment of the suspension.
     
    Azura and Randoms like this.
  9. JNTEX

    JNTEX Lava Police

    Location:
    Texas
    my lp12 is sitting on a wood cabinet, on a wood floor, about three feet from a speaker. Never had a skip from resonance.

    Sometimes I will clean the cover and charge the whole table (oops) and the tonearm moves to my hand. Magic voodoo.
     
  10. tzh21y

    tzh21y Forum Resident

    Location:
    Buffalo
    My guess is that you could potentially improve the sound of a 1200G with a different tonearm but I will tell you that I have never encountered a table with this much value right out of the box ever. Its like getting a free arm thats actually very good. I know people using high end carts on this arm. Thats not to say it could not be bettered but it really is an impressive bit of engineering the 1200G is. No doubt about it. The LP12 I heard was very nice. Very large soundstage. Is it worth between 15 and 20K? To me, no. The 1200G is a much more solid image with very tight bass and sustain is incredible as I said very noticeable on piano which IMO, is the most difficult instrument to reproduce in analogue as well as instruments like Triangle bells. Very nice. They are two totally different sounds the LP12 and 1200G are. I believe that the 1200G does give a very accurate representation of what is actually in the grooves.
     
    Halloween_Jack likes this.
  11. tzh21y

    tzh21y Forum Resident

    Location:
    Buffalo
    The Ekos is not a bad arm but I think the ITTok is probably pretty close to it.
     
  12. TarnishedEars

    TarnishedEars Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Seattle area
    Ok, I think that I am now qualified to have an opinion on this matter now having spent the majority of the weekend comparing my prehistoric LP12 to my brand new SL1210GR.

    I have now tried a total of 3 different cartridges on my 1210GR, an OM-30Super, a Grado Silver, and a Monster alpha genesis 1000 MC cartridge. Initially I tried the OM-30 super and found it distinctly lacking in detail and resolution. The Grado silver only made matters worse to my ears, so it stayed on for only a couple of days.

    So I finally I decided to mount a spare Monster alpha genesis 1000 cartridge on the 1210GR, since this is what I currently have mounted on my prehistoric Linn. The goal was to remove as many variables as possible when comparing the Technics to my Linn. I used the same phono preamp (a modified CJ-PV-6), combined with the same MC stepup transformer (a Denon au320 because it could switch back and a forth between cartridges).

    During every comparison I synced each TT with my Oppo 103 which was driving my (slightly modified) PS Audio Direct Stream DAC playing redbook CDs of the exact same recordings. This allowed both my wife and myself to easily switch back and forth for comparison with these CD references.

    The Linn is a pre-Valhalla Linn which was fully up to date at the time that the Valhalla version came-out. So around 1982 or so, but with a 1987 armboard. I have an eminent technology II air bearing arm on the Linn. That is a pretty big variable, but since we are comparing the Technics as whole, I'm not feeling too bad about that being one of the variables in this equation. I also matched the playback levels as closely as I could by ear between the 2 TTs and my DS DAC for each comparison.

    The only update to the Linn is that it was being fed by a Pheonix Falcon PSU (the closest thing to a poor-man's Lingo that I could ever find). It has no keel, the old bearing, etc. As I say, it's largely prehistoric, other than my relatively recent addition of the Pheonix PSU.

    So how do they compare? In terms of pitch, both units were dead-on 33.3 RPM with the addition of the phoenix PSU on the Linn. Without the addition of Pheonix PSU, the Linn would have been just the slightest bit flat though.

    I could not hear any perceptible difference in the W&F between the two TTs or the CD when playing piano and saxophone. I will say that the technics had perhaps just a little deeper bass than did the Linn. But the bass sounded sort of peculiar on the technics. It changed in character depending upon the range of the instrument, and I did not hear this effect nearly as much on either my DS DAC, or on my Linn.

    But in listening to the technics when compared to my DS DAC, both my wife and I independently noticed that the depth of the soundstage was significantly flatter-sounding out of the 1210GR when it is compared to he sound out of either the Linn or the CD player. This was pretty disappointing, because I have always felt that analog was at its best when it comes to its ability to throw a 3D soundstage. But my DS DAC outperformed the 1200GR in that regard! On the other hand, both my wife and myself thought that this was nearly a draw between the Linn and the DS.

    When my wife started listening to the LP-12 after hearing the 1210GR play the exact same track, within about 15 seconds she said that the LP12 sounded more "romantic" and that it pulled her into the music much more than did the technics. While this comment did not shock me (since it has been a common criticism which has been leveled at older Linns ), I was surprised by how quickly she noticed this difference. And this was most surprising to me because she has never read any audio press, and I've never discussed this subject with her.

    My wife also noticed that one background instrument, on one of the recording that we were listening to, just sounded so indistinct on the Technics that if you hadn't heard the CD playing side-by-side you would have barely even noticed that it was there at all. But on both the CD played through the DS and LP played on my Linn, this instrument could be heard very clearly. In fact, this regard the LP-12 ever so slightly edged-out my modified DS DAC in the reproduction of this instrument.

    In the end, after a couple of hours of listening to both TTs, attempting to give the technics as fair of a shake while my wife was listening as I could, she said to me "I'm sorry if you like this new Turntable that you just got. But the Linn absolutely stomps it.". And in terms of depth of soundstage, low-level resolution, and in terms of being able to display that elusive "midrange magic", I was in agreement with her.

    Now the big question in my mind is: How is it that I seem to be the only person on this forum who is hearing these flaws in the 1210GR? I'm not sure if this is because the GR is just that-much inferior to the new G, or if very few of you G owners care very much about hearing the ambience and low-level detail inside of your recordings.

    I really wish that I could hear a 1200G for myself to hear if they sonically stomp on the 1200GR the way that my Linn does though. I'm tired of futzing with my Linn. But unfortunately this particular technics cannot fill its shoes sonically, and so I would never listen to it.

    Note: I have no affiliation with any dealers or manufacturers. This review is not an attempt to thread-crap. It is just my honest experience with one of these new TTs so far from a guy who really wanted to like it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2018
  13. Newton John

    Newton John Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cumbria, UK
    Thanks for the detailed comparison.

    I am curious why you didn't make the comparison before you bought the new Technics turntable. If, as you say, the LP12 appears to come out on top, it might have made more sense for you to have considered the option of upgrading it rather than buying another turntable. Did you need a second turntable for some reason?
     
    displayname likes this.
  14. Dubmart

    Dubmart Senior Member

    Location:
    Bristol, England
    He clearly states that he's "tired of futzing with my Linn", so obviously wants something that's plug and play and low maintenance, which the Technics definitely is, as for the comparison, are there any stores where you can demo a LP12, or your own LP12 against the Technics? I guess most people who buy the Technics either have an in store demo where it's coupled with unfamiliar gear or base their purchase on online reviews and threads such as this which are generally very pro Technics and not full of people who have previously used high end decks such as LP12s.
     
    Dahuky and McLover like this.
  15. punkmusick

    punkmusick Amateur drummer

    Location:
    Brazil
    This is a very interesting comparison. While I was reading, I kept wondering why you used digital as a model to evaluate analog. Seems like you prefer a turntable when it sounds more closely to your DAC, so you set digital as a parameter. It's curious how often people do this, it seems like digital is the "right" sound to you and the more different from digital the more "wrong" analog sounds.
     
  16. Agitater

    Agitater Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto
    Unfortunately, your test - as enjoyable as it probably was for you and your wife - only succeeded in determining which tonearm is best suited to the Monster Alpha Genesis 1000 cartridge. Originally designed by ZYX for Monster Cable, the cartridge was quite good and well regarded. Your digital/CD comparison is also somewhat confusing, but understandable enough on a certain level (though it’s more appropriate when comparing background noise levels, dynamics, compression level and so on - recording qualities in other words, not turntables).

    What you deteremined has little to do with whether a Technics SL1200GR or G or GAE might be more or less desirable than a Linn LP12 of any vintage or level. It has only to do with which tonearm is best suited to the Momster Alpha Genesis 1000 cartridge. For anyone who is absolutely dedicated to using a particular cartridge or two (or three), the tonearm compatibility of any particular turntable is what matters most. Choose the turntable/tonearm combination that allows the cartridge to perform its best. That’s what you figured out for the Monster Alpha Genesis 1000.
     
    Dahuky and punkmusick like this.
  17. Dubmart

    Dubmart Senior Member

    Location:
    Bristol, England
    He says he tried three carts including an OM30 and Ortofons are common partners for the new Technics, I've seen and heard Technics using the 2M Black to demo the GAE, I'm not a huge fan of the Linn and personally would much rather own and use a Technics, but that doesn't mean that TarnishedEars comparison isn't valid for him and his wife, we all hear things differently and appreciate different areas of performance.
     
  18. Bob_in_OKC

    Bob_in_OKC Forum Resident

    Location:
    Dallas, Texas
    It is common in audio forums, including this, to insist that to compare turntables one must do so with the same cartridge. Now, someone has made a comparison with the same cartridge and you say it’s nothing more than a test of which tonearm is best suited to the cartridge. That’s not surprising, though. Owning a Technics seems to require defending it.
     
    Strat-Mangler and Seafinch like this.
  19. Agitater

    Agitater Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto
    Absolutely, but the comparison was done using two Monster Alpha Genesis 1000 cartridges. That was my point.
     
  20. Agitater

    Agitater Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto
    Not really, at least not in this case, because I also own and actively use a very good LP12 alongside ny SL1200G, Avid Diva SP II and a couple of others.

    Just re-installed an Akito tonearm in my LP12 over the weekend. Using it with a Shure V15 Type VxMR. Lots of fun, but at times laid back almost to a fault. It will take some time to get used to the Shure after running an Acoustical Systems Fideles in the LP12 for several weeks. The Fideles was definitely not a good match for the Technics SL12ooG arm and a Fidelix Mitchaku headshell. See what I’m getting at?
     
    punkmusick likes this.
  21. Bob_in_OKC

    Bob_in_OKC Forum Resident

    Location:
    Dallas, Texas
    You are ignoring what I’m getting at. There’s something about the Technics that requires its owners to openly defend it, even if they have to change their story to do it. You haven’t been defending those other turntables.
     
  22. Agitater

    Agitater Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto
    Absolute nonsense. I’ve clearly stated elsewhere in this thread (I think) and certainly repeatedly in other SL1200GR/G/GAE threads that when comparing the SL1200GR/G/GAE to a wide variety of other turntables (including the LP12) that there really is no bad choice.
     
  23. Bob_in_OKC

    Bob_in_OKC Forum Resident

    Location:
    Dallas, Texas
    Look at the context, though, and see the predictable results. Someone compares a Linn to the 1200, out come the Technics defenders. A Pioneer vs. Technics, here come the Technics guys again. How about a Rega vs. Technics? Here they come again. If someone said they preferred a Linn or a Pioneer over my Rega, would I call into question their choices, methods, or even their ears?
     
    Anjo and JoeSmo like this.
  24. punkmusick

    punkmusick Amateur drummer

    Location:
    Brazil
    Come on guys, @Agitater 's observations are valid. The fact that the Linn sounded better than the Technics with that cartridge was never denied. The experiment proved exactly that it sounded better! However, from one single experience with one cartridge you can't validly induce that other experiences with the same or other cartridges would culminate in the same results. It's a matter of the inherent logic of experimentation. Karl Popper in The Logic of Scientific Discovery explained this almost 60 years ago. The experiment only proves what it proves: the Linn with that cartridge sounded better for that guy in that environment according to his tastes. That's fine, good to know. I can't see the problem.

    He's not defending the Technics against the Linn.
     
    Aftermath and Bob_in_OKC like this.
  25. Agitater

    Agitater Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto
    Okay . . . in general I might agree with you if it weren’t for the overwhelmingly dominating interest in the SL1200 in general and the GR/G in particular these days. That enormous level of interest tends to inspire favoritism as a normal reaction in a lot of people. It just as readily inspires dislike or distrust of the product in many other people too, mainly those who naturally tend to resist popular trends. They’ve expressed themselves as well quite rightly in this thread and others. IMO, there have been only a few fan boys making themselves known here.

    We also have to acknowledge purchase reinforcement, something that is a logical effect of spending $2000-$4000 on a turntable. There are any number of perfectly rational and normal people (and audiophiles) who make an expensive purchase and then quite unconsciously seek ways to reinforce the appropriateness of the purchase decision. They look for others of like mind who will agree that the purchase was a very good idea. Some read the product reviews after the purchase and become upset at any negative word.

    Again though, in other SL1200GR/G threads (and possibly this one too), I’ve also repeatedly pointed out that between the Rega RP6 (modified), new Rega P6, Rp8, SL1200GR/G and Linn LP 12 Majik and Akurate, it is impossible to make a bad choice.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2018
    Anjo, Shawn and Bob_in_OKC like this.

Share This Page

molar-endocrine