Technics 1200G or Linn Sondek LP12

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Airbus, Feb 16, 2018.

  1. Classicrock

    Classicrock Forum Resident

    Location:
    South West, UK.
    It's available as an OEM version. Check out Moth Marketing. Michell also supply them with their turntables. The Michell derivative has improved grounding and can be purchased separately. Moth do versions with Incognito rewire.
     
    Randoms likes this.
  2. Randoms

    Randoms Aerie Faerie Nonsense

    Location:
    UK
    I can't think of anyone more qualified, or with access to more precision equipment for the relatively easy task of modifying a Linn armboard!
     
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  3. Dubmart

    Dubmart Forum Resident

    Location:
    Bristol, UK
    Yes, Rega make excellent arms, but they don't play nice on Linns, I have also always assumed the same to be true for Aristons and Thorens 150/160s, I still have my old Ariston tucked away and it never occurred to me to swap the Alphason mounted on it for a Rega, even when I had 4 or 5 different Regas to hand, synergy definitely comes into play a lot with arms.
     
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  4. Randoms

    Randoms Aerie Faerie Nonsense

    Location:
    UK
    Moth Marketing supplied the OEM version of the RB250 going back to around 1990.

    Fantastic performance and value arm.
     
  5. Randoms

    Randoms Aerie Faerie Nonsense

    Location:
    UK
    The Manticore Mantra, was often fitted with the RB250, but for whatever reasons, the Rega arms did not perform at their best on a LP12, whereas the Roksan Xerxes was a good match.

    I'm sure that a number of LP12s were fitted with the earlier Acos Lustre (Rega R200) S shaped arm.
     
  6. Agitater

    Agitater Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto
    Right - forgot about the Moth, but I’ve only ever seen the Moth RB250, Origin Live RB250, Moth RB330, Origin Live RB330 and the RB800 and RB1000. Didn’t realize the RB303 was in the mix as well. I checked BritAudio.com and there it is.

    As @Randoms posted, Williamson is probably one of the people best qualified to sort out the correct sort of armboard for the Rega 3-point mount. Seems like a pointless exercise though. I’ve seen dozens of customized LP12s over the years, but not a single one with a Rega arm of any kind.

    We’re way off topic now!
     
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  7. Dubmart

    Dubmart Forum Resident

    Location:
    Bristol, UK
    So many people mounted RB300s on the Xerxes, perhaps that's why Roksan used the Rega mount with the Artemiz, I went against the tide and had an Alphason on my original Xerxes before I bought the Artemiz, I then mounted the Alphason on my Ariston and my much upgraded Artemiz is now on my Xerxes 10 although to get back on topic I did try it on my SL-1210 and didn't think it was a good match.
     
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  8. Classicrock

    Classicrock Forum Resident

    Location:
    South West, UK.
    The Acos Lustre and R200 have a number of differences I am told. Some early rega decks were fitted with Acos lustre. It was a sort of cheap alternative to the SME 3009 II but some say as good. Both these arms should be fine on Linn and Thorens decks. I would have thought the current M2-9 SME arm would work well. Some have claimed a successful match with SME 309.
     
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  9. Randoms

    Randoms Aerie Faerie Nonsense

    Location:
    UK
    Acos Lustre had height adjustment, the Rega was a simplified version.
     
  10. TarnishedEars

    TarnishedEars Forum Resident

    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    I make no claims that my Linn is as good as analog gets. I know that it isn't. But it is still a hard act to follow with digital.

    And the DS DAC upsamples everything coming in to 20X DSD, then it passively converts the 20X DSD to analog.
     
  11. DaveyF

    DaveyF Forum Resident

    Location:
    La Jolla, Calif
    What tonearm on your Magik? This is the one area that on a Linn makes a HUGE difference, if it was the stock Akito or the Basik Plus arm...then what you stated could easily make some sense. You have to step up to a Ekos 2 or Ekos SE or another compatible non Linn arm for the table to really show what it can do.
     
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  12. TarnishedEars

    TarnishedEars Forum Resident

    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    Ok, I tried a quick last-minute experiment tonight as I was contemplating when I should box-up the GR so that I could return it. For the heck of it, I decided to throw my Linn's felt mat onto the GR to replace the Herbie's Mat which I had on it. And, frankly I'm a little shocked by the difference. The brash midrange which offended my ears so badly is completely gone now. And now that the sound no longer offends my ears, I can finally hear the powerful transients and drive to the bass that you guys have been praising so much. And when I put the same album on the LP-12, the bass now sounds mushy by comparison, and the music sounds somewhat loosy-goosy by comparison, for lack of a better description (although it still sounds wonderful).

    So there appear to be some other variables here which I did not take into account in my original experiment which seem to throw all of my initial results into complete question now. Unfortunately I don't have more time to listen tonight. But needless to say, there is a possibility that I will not be boxing-up this unit after all... I'll have more to say about this later this week when I have some more time to listen again.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2018
    Shawn, 4011021, displayname and 2 others like this.
  13. Randoms

    Randoms Aerie Faerie Nonsense

    Location:
    UK
    You will have to try the felt mat both ways up to see if the Technics responds the same way as the LP12!
     
  14. JoeSmo

    JoeSmo SL1200 lover....

    Location:
    Maidstone
    .....Just the bog standard Project 9cc tonearm. Upgrading the tonearm to ekos is another £3k which would have brought my LP12 to £9k in total! I used to ‘get’ the Linn hierarchy and was considering the next step (ekos) but then Technics launched the SL1200G......the decision to swap was easy as there was no competent Linn dealer where I ‘used’ to live either, which I concede, may be the reason I was never happy with the machines performance and leapt at the Technics.....
     
  15. Classicrock

    Classicrock Forum Resident

    Location:
    South West, UK.
    I hate felt mats. Try the supplied mat again as some say they prefer it over others they tried. I would also consider acrylic or a cork composite. If you are using MC change the headshell to a Jelco/Sumiko or Ortofon. Does it come with a slip mat? Would have thought it's lack of damping could be close to felt. There is quite a bit of scope to tweak in these areas without modding the deck.
     
  16. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    Good work. The GR and really most turntables- respond well to optimizing / tonearm /cartridge / system resonance interactions. Mats, isolation (one I haven't found the need for) , VTA, VTF, cables from table to preamp and preamp to amp, headshell, etc. all have an effect. Even with a near perfect calculated resonance frequency of 10Hz between the tonearm and cartridge, there is still room for optimization.
     
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  17. TarnishedEars

    TarnishedEars Forum Resident

    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    I definitely plan to try the stock mat again in the next day or two. It is not a slip mat. It is just a very generic-looking and feeling rubber mat which is much like the rubber mats that most of the Japanese TTs from the 70s and 80s featured.

    For the moment my experiments are going to be limited to what I have laying around the house. And I do not own any cork mats yet. And until I decide for sure whether I'm going to keep it, I'm not planning to sink any more money into it. But if I should decide to keep it, I will almost certainly buy a few different high-quality headshells and mats in an attempt to optimize it.

    FWIW: I know that My Linn only sounds good with felt. And I've noticed that VPI is using felt these days as well. So this seems to speak pretty highly of felt mats; at least when used on highly quality TTs. I have no idea if other felt mats sound the same as my Linn matt though. I remember owning a discwasher anti-static mat about 35 years ago which featured both a soft side, and a "crispy" side, for lack of a better description. My Linn's mat feels identically soft on both sides tough. And static is rarely a problem up here, since it often rains 9 months of the year in Seattle. So felt is fine with me, if that should be what it takes to make this unit sound its best.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2018
  18. Classicrock

    Classicrock Forum Resident

    Location:
    South West, UK.
    Has Price reviewed the Technics? I thought he quit hi-fi reviewing a few years ago. He's artistic director of some Chino/British magazine (sold in China) apparently.
     
  19. darkmatter

    darkmatter Gort Astronomer Staff

    LP12 used them since I was 15
     
  20. DaveyF

    DaveyF Forum Resident

    Location:
    La Jolla, Calif
    Bog standard Project 9cc arm will always lead to a bog standard reproduction. Therefore, unfortunately you did not hear what the LP12 is capable of...or even close.
    Comparing the Technics to the LP12 with the correct ancillary gear is like I said above, a Fiat compared to a Ferrari.
    Always an important aspect when I see forum posts saying this table or that amp is better than ..... is what the context of that opinion is...and what the ancillary gear used was with it; really puts everything that the poster stated into perspective.
     
  21. Classicrock

    Classicrock Forum Resident

    Location:
    South West, UK.
    Suggesting that an LP12 needs an Ecos SE to sound any good points to the turntable itself not sounding great and needing a big lift. With the Project and Akito which are claimed to have good synergy by Linn it should be competitive with a £3K turntable (especially with the other mods). I think this may also depend on cartridge being used. If you have a top MC the Ecos is a better match.
    Also don't you need the Keel as well to take advantage of the Ecos?
     
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  22. Randoms

    Randoms Aerie Faerie Nonsense

    Location:
    UK
    The Project 9cc is a fine arm, but you are certainly correct you can get better.

    The current Akito is a very good arm, but I think causes confusion as the original Akito goes back 25 plus years, and the performance is in no way comparable and neither is the materials and tolerances.

    A lot of manufactures have continuous development, and Linn are one of them. So is Technics! I am completely out of the loop with Linn and Technics turntables, so even though I've owned several LP12s with different arms, could not offer an honest opinion about relative performance - same with Technics.

    If I wanted to know which was the "best" turntable now, I would listen for myself through the most revealing system I could.

    It is amazing how many very good turntables / arms come unstuck, when you hear a system that can reproduce tunefully that lowest bottom octave.
     
  23. Erocka2000

    Erocka2000 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY, USA
    In your opinion. If the LP12 is so great, why do they need to keep adding upgrades? Why doesn’t Linn simply just start from scratch and design a new table? It’s been over 40 years now.
     
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  24. Randoms

    Randoms Aerie Faerie Nonsense

    Location:
    UK
    Surely there are a lot of parallels between the development of the LP12 and SL12** series?

    A current LP12 is a very good turntable, an undamaged 40 year old LP12 is a very good turntable. Why do Linn have to start from scratch?

    Others can argue if neither of both are state of the art designs, most of the design features of a lot of current excellent turntables go back 30 odd years.

    Linn don't need to keep developing the LP12, but they choose to. Equally people can choose to upgrade or not.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2018
  25. Erocka2000

    Erocka2000 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY, USA
    I was basing my comment on DaveyF continuing to use the Ferrari/Fiat comparison. If that was the case, why isn't Ferrari still upgrading the 125 S? It's because technology has moved on and they designed new cars.

    Look, I understand the importance of the LP12 in the history of HiFi, as it was a great deck in it's time and it's still a decent deck. But it's no longer the world beater than Linn-ites still think it is. The upgrades are also criminally overpriced, and yes, people don't have to buy, but still, they should be priced a little more in reality for what they are. And after having owned one, I can tell you that pretty much every other table I owned bettered it (Well Tempered Amadeus GTA, Rega P9, Thorens TD-124, Technics SL-1200G). Not to mention the fact that the LP12 is impossible to use if you have suspended floors and can't use a wall shelf.
     

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