Technics 1200G or Linn Sondek LP12

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Airbus, Feb 16, 2018.

  1. Agitater

    Agitater Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto
    :confused: I think it’s worth considering that because Linn was not the first company to ever develop a product with the same sort of global reputation as the LP12, someone (many people actually) might have written a book (many books actually) about the various ways to build such a product reputation before Linn and Ivor Tiefenbrun came along. Consider that Linn and Tiefenbrun may have in some respects emulated the successes of other companies and business people that came before them.

    As for business schools using Linn as an example of a company that successfully built a long-term business, adapting to changing times and changing technology while continuing to maintain its old analog turntable foundations with the LP12, I’m not entirely sure that the company hasn’t been occasionally used as precisely just such an example of how to successfully do what it does. It’s certainly possible that various teachers, professors, consultants and advisors have presented Linn from time to time over the years, at least occasionally in business school classes in Scotland and England at a minimum. The audiophile component business is a rather small global niche though, so I’m not sure why anyone would think that Linn’s LP12 can’t have mystique and cachet (amongst many audiophiles who are the turntable’s principle target market) unless the company is “celebrated in business schools throughout the world (...).”

    The fact remains, whether you have realized it or not, that innumerable glowing reviews over the past 40 years or more have helped to build the elevated position of the LP12, and innumerable user testimonials over all that time have helped to reinforce that elevated position. I’m not an LP12 owner, but that doesn’t prevent me from recognizing the obvious. The LP12 is a famous model of turntable amongst audiophiles in general and is highly regarded amongst the turntable and LP congnoscenti as well.
     
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  2. Airbus

    Airbus Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Beirut - Lebanon
    The LP12 is popular with many audiophiles around the world for its excellent ability to play music with "pace, rhythm and timing". It is sometimes used by hi-fi reviewers as a reference turntable.
    The LP12 has acquired such cult status, amongst audiophile turntables that many seek to knock it off its pedestal. Although the design has not been fundamentally revisited, there have been improvements to the turntable's design since its launch using advances in material science, over 40 years ago. It remains possible to buy a Sondek LP12 in a configuration not dissimilar to one made in 1973. In 2004, Stereophile said it was "a classic, a revolutionary, an iconoclast, a survivor." In 2011, ranking the LP12 the second "Most Significant Turntables of All Time" for The Absolute Sound, Robert Harley said: "It’s impossible to imagine the high-end industry without the LP12".
     
  3. John76

    John76 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Midwest
    No agenda at all, just curiosity and the wherewithal to present the comparison. There’s another thread out there with a Rega 3 vs the same SL1200 mk2, I preferred the Rega.

    The success of the LP12 had a lot to do with the distributors and dealer network who were able to make a good sound and pull off meaningful direct comparisons with the gear they sold. The equipment sold itself based on listening.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2018
  4. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    yes, plus there are two distinct sounds of these tables that really come down to preference and system matching.
     
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  5. Classicrock

    Classicrock Senior Member

    Location:
    South West, UK.
    It is true but they are not big enough. I do believe they got some industry awards in the old days. But is ******** marketing and overpricing a model to be held up in business schools. In that case double glazing firms would probably dominate text books.
     
  6. Socalguy

    Socalguy Forum Resident

    Location:
    CA
    Neither of these tables has any discernible "sound", and even if they did, I guarantee that in a blind test 99.9% of the human population could not differentiate between them.
     
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  7. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    Respectfully disagree. Suspended belt driven tables have a different sound signature than high mass direct drive tables. Subtle but easily discerned.
     
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  8. Drewan77

    Drewan77 Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK/USA
    Have you owned and used these turntables, these comments suggest not. I've had both & they are different sounding in so many ways.
     
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  9. Socalguy

    Socalguy Forum Resident

    Location:
    CA
    Really now? I'm a musician, I've been making and listening to music for decades, I've owned and worked with plenty of high end gear, I consider my hearing to be fairly good.

    You guys who claim you can hear differences... what exactly is this different "signature" you are hearing between these two turntables? And how are you attributing it solely to the tables? How exactly are you eliminating the myriad of variables in the sound chain to isolate the sound of just the table? What cartridges are you using in each table? (btw I think the cartridge is what you are hearing, not the table). How and where are you placing each table in the listening environment?

    These tables for all practical purposes are essentially sonically neutral. No offense intended, but I think anyone who claims they can hear a different "sound signature" between them is either fooling themselves or has a canine-like hearing superpower the rest of us morals lack.
     
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  10. John76

    John76 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Midwest
    Here’s a thread where I provided a couple songs recorded from a Rega 2 and Technics SL-1200 mk2. I used the exact same cartridge on each, the only variables are the turntables themselves. I have no problem figuring out which I prefer and I’m not a musician.

    Speed corrected Rega 2 vs Technics SL-1200 mk2 comparison
     
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  11. vinylkid58

    vinylkid58 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Victoria, B.C.
    Having lived with both an LP12 and a SL1200M3D for many years, I can tell you they are NOT sonically neutral.

    jeff
     
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  12. Socalguy

    Socalguy Forum Resident

    Location:
    CA
    You aren't hearing the turntables, you're hearing the cartridge and random vibration artifacts it is picking up, most likely from less than optimal placement and/or set up of one or both tables in your listening environment.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2018
  13. Classicrock

    Classicrock Senior Member

    Location:
    South West, UK.
    Has it occured to you that people who have compared DD and belt drive models including the ones being discussed have done so with the same cartridge? Apart from variables between models in terms of presentation there is a distinct belt drive sound, a Direct Drive sound and Idler Drive sound. The music is not fundamentally changed but there are differences in presentation that are easier to identify if you have experienced them.
     
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  14. Socalguy

    Socalguy Forum Resident

    Location:
    CA
    1. The same cartridge may not be ideal for both tonearms. They have different materials, different geometries, and different masses.
    2. If you are hearing "belt sound" or "Direct Drive sound" you either have a defective unit or a vivid imagination.
     
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  15. Classicrock

    Classicrock Senior Member

    Location:
    South West, UK.
    Yep I forgot all turntables sound the same and so do all CD players. :)
     
  16. Newton John

    Newton John Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cumbria, UK
    It is not possible to build a successful award winning company like Linn, that has prospered for decades, on the basis of dodgy marketing and overpricing. In any case, slagging off one of the manufacturers without offering supporting evidence is not helping the guy who asked the original question.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2018
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  17. Newton John

    Newton John Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cumbria, UK
    Yes but that's not quite the same as the "building the prices to blatantly inflated levels" remark contained in your previous post.
     
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  18. I gave up on Linn when i moved to France. No Linn dealer near me so i am happy to stick with my Rega. Linn seem to need a lot love and care.
     
  19. sturgus

    sturgus Forum Resident

    Location:
    St. Louis Mo
    I have used the same tonearm, the same cartridge, sitting on the same rack in the same location. Guess what they sound different.
     
  20. punkmusick

    punkmusick Amateur drummer

    Location:
    Brazil
    LP12 and 1200G with same arm? Which one?
     
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  21. Classicrock

    Classicrock Senior Member

    Location:
    South West, UK.
    I've had conversations with people that were 'victims' of the marketing tactics of Ivor T and Julian V back in the day. A lot of dealers were at least discouraged from offering competing products and some actively would rubbish competitor's products if you asked about them in my experience and others. Perhaps some may think Ivor is a marketing genius but others would say he pushed a deeply flawed product over better alternatives by sucking in the magazines. Current Linn is a rather different company but it still means buying into the brand name and having to pay an increasingly high premium if you do.
     
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  22. sturgus

    sturgus Forum Resident

    Location:
    St. Louis Mo
    The poster said.
    If you are hearing "belt sound" or "Direct Drive sound" you either have a defective unit or a vivid imagination
    You aren't hearing the turntables, you're hearing the cartridge and random vibration artifacts it is picking up, most likely from less than optimal placement and/or set up of one or both tables in your listening environment.
     
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  23. Socalguy

    Socalguy Forum Resident

    Location:
    CA
    You fit the same tonearm on a 1200G and a LP12? Let's see a pic.
     
  24. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    definitely the cartridge is "creating" the sound as influenced by multiple attributes of the turntable- speed stability, vibration management, damping, tonearm match, etc. Each can be correct for a given table yet still sound much different depending on the table's execution.
     
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  25. ANALOGUE OR DEATH

    ANALOGUE OR DEATH Forum Resident

    Location:
    HULL ENGLAND
    You seem very sure of yourself.
     

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