Telefunken 12AX7

OK, so I want to replace my McIntosh stock chinese 12AX7As with some NOS. I know I should get a quad set of classic Telefunkens, BUT they're a tad rich for my blood. I haven't been able to find any for under a couple hundred. If I can't get telefunkens, what the 2nd best for 12AX7s?

And, can I use any variation of the 12AX7 in my amp w/o running the risk of a problem?

Thanks,
Matt The Cat

 

WOW! Thanks for the help, Steve. I have seen them marked Fisher etc, but thought that was a different tube and not orig. Awesome. I'll follow your advice.

Are Sovteks good for KT88s?

-MTC

 

Where are you guys getting your 12AX7s? I've looked at every tube store online that I can find and they all seem to be overpriced. I've found some on ebay, but most of those are in bidding wars, although I'm winning an auction right now for 4 or $100. I think I will be outbid any moment now.

-MTC

 

I'd go for JJ/Tesla or SED for KT-88's over Sovtek.

 

Matt I have a McIntosh C2300 tube preamp - I know not the same as your integrated, but they are both modern McIntosh pieces, so maybe my experience can be of some use.

To be perfectly honest, I prefer the stock Svetlana 12AX7 tubes in this preamp to vintage Telefunkens, by quite a margin. The Svetlanas sound perfectly balanced in this preamp - nice full bass but not over-ripe, gorgeous mids, and a nice clear high end with just a tad of softening - really great for taming the cold edges on CDs.

I very much liked the vintage Tele 12AX7 tube in my old MC30 and MC60 amps, where they added a bit of life and sparkle, but they just sound edgy on top and, surprisingly to me, boomy on bottom in this modern preamp. Same thing with some modern Electro-Harmonix 12AX7s - they were way too bright but unlike the Teles they thinned out the bass too much. I tried both the Teles and EH's over extended periods of time (several weeks) before getting the Svetlanas back in there and then realized just how excellently suited they were to this particular piece of gear, tonally (btw these are McIntosh branded older Svetlanas, not the ones currently available at most online tube retailers which are a totally different design...I've bought a stockpile of extras from McIntosh I like them so much).

As Steve mentions sometimes a particular piece of gear may be "voiced" with a certain type of tube in mind. Maybe that's what's going on. Whatever, but my main point is, don't automatically assume you "need" Teles in your modern McIntosh integrated.

Also FWIW I spoke directly to a couple folks at McIntosh about vintage tube rolling in this preamp and they felt that the stock Svetlana tubes were ideally suited for my C2300. I didn't listen initially and tried my experiments but ended up concluding they were right. I figure they must know something - doubt a company like McIntosh would sell a $6000 preamp with tubes they thought sounded crappy in their gear, just to save a buck...

All that said: ultimately I'd encourage you to just experiment and not take my word or anyone else's about this - try the Teles, by all means, what the hell, maybe in your amp/system/room etc they are just the ticket. You will be able to resell them for as much or more as you pay for them, I'd bet, if you decide you don't like them.

 

Well this was with the C2300 preamp loaded with Teles and then coupled with several different power amps and different types of power tubes, including a quad of vintage Genelex Gold Monarchs, which were as smooth as smooth can be.

The "edginess" I hear in the Teles is in the upper mids; I just find the Teles push that part of the range out to the point that it grates on me after an hour or so of listening, even at low volumes. I find my ears are very sensitive to mids though, so maybe it's my quirky way of hearing things.

And the bass is just not very tight to me - there's plenty of it but it sounds loose.

A good example comparison recording for me Steve was your mastering of Benny Carter's JAZZ GIANT. With the Teles, Carter's alto took on a somewhat thin, upper midrangy quality, as did Kessel's guitar, and Ray Brown's bass was boomy. With the Svetlanas all became tonally right in the world!

I do agree the extended treble range on the Teles is smooth as silk, forgiving in fact; no quibbles there. Perhaps it's this forgiving nature on top that makes the upper mids seem to come forward? Some folks would like that, others it might bother.

And all this is pertaining to the Teles in the C2300, I definitely wouldn't try and generalize beyond that.

 

If you're after teles be careful to avoid fakes; tubes relabeled "Telefunken" are common. I personally would not buy them from ebay, but of course it's your decision. Beyond a certain point the only way to evaluate the sound of a tube is to try it yourself because personal tastes vary and descriptions of sound are highly interpretive. You may be surprised to find that you prefer a cheaper tube. My $.02.

 

Back when I owned an MC 240 I liked RCA black plates and Mullards. Telefunken were tops on my list as well. Amperex bugle boys, while a top drawer tube in some circuits was a little bright in the Mac.

Raytheon black plates were excellent as well.

If you want to try out the American black plates, look for the Conn and Baldwin re-branded organ tubes if you don't want to shell out for RCA proper.

The neat thing with the European tubes like the Tele's is the getter flashing, when you turn the amp on, they flash before fully firing up.

Any of the above tubes will be a huge improvement over the Chinese stuff.

 

Svetlana Winged C KT88 is the best I've heard in current production.

 

i collect tubes (have for years) ,as we know teles have always been a 1st choice for hi-fi but one of the 'least liked 12ax7' in say marshall amps (unless you are talking about the phase inverter position).

i must say i dont have near the experience of 12ax7 in hifi but there are many great 12ax7 and 5751 and 12at7 besides telefunken that are used by hifi folks.

you need to start collecting different 12ax7 and try some out for yourself!

 

I've heard the 'Telefunken is bright' comment before - which makes them good partners for vintage gear since they bump up the high frequencies.

Dunno if I buy into it - Mullard 12AX7s sound a touch dark to me in comparison.

 

Can anybody help with a reputable place to get said tubes? I'd would definitely try a pair if I could find them. Great information Steve! Now if only I could find them.

 

Brent Jesse carries them (prepare for wallet vacuuming)
http://www.audiotubes.com/12ax7.htm#12ax7 list

another budget option is the Ei 12AX7 - it was supposedly designed using the Telefunken smooth plate as the model. This tube hasn't been made for awhile but its still out there if you look around.

 

My son and I have tried them all in our Citation IIs, including the OS Genelex Gold Lions, we prefer the Pentas. Soveteks are our second choice.

HG

 

I agree with DrJ . IMHO, the Svetlana 12AX7 Winged C's are the "pick of the litter" when it comes to preamp tubes for my system. I took the Teles that came with my Dynaco out long ago and now use Svetlanas exclusively. Teles have great mids and acceptable highs, but the bass is a bit too flabby for my taste.

HG

 

By chance, does anyone here know why SED stopped making 12AX7 tubes?

- Sushimaster

 

While you are on the subject......

These are still available:

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=122527&highlight=12ax7

 

who makes the Pentas? have you got a link?

 

They are made in China by Shuguang for Penta Labratories.

I buy mine from Doug Tubes. http://www.dougstubes.com/6550kt88.htm

Penta makes 2 versions of the KT88. I use the Penta KT88SCs, not the KT88-98s. The link provided will explain the differences between these two tubes.

HG

 

there are several variations in mullard 12ax7--long plate--short plate and box plate all are different and even the same design will vary batch to batch.

i must have 70-80 variations of 12ax7 from early raytheon and tung sol blackplate to the last mullard production to a few of the newest 12ax7 of which chinese is getting better.

if you find good examples of ei 12ax7 they can be great but they vary WIDELY in gain and tone not to mention microphonics.

 

ABSOLUTELY my experience (though I think it's the upper mids that are bumped forward, not the highs which are smooth, maybe even a bit rolled off). Great in the MC30s for example, which needed some sparkle. Not great in neutral modern gear to my ears.

 

Upscale Audio - 12AX7s

Do any of you use this place for tube purchases? They claim to have expensive tube testing gear. Their focus seems to be high-end audio rather than guitar ampls. Their prices seem high compared to other places.

I would be interested in your comments.

Scott