Telefunken 12AX7

just ran across this thread as i've been rolling some tubes in my mc 275 and manley shrimp preamp this weekend.

i've been running teles for the small tubes in my amp for a while now with sylvania 12at7 tubes in my preamp. my system tends to be bright (mostly from room interactions) and the high end became even more emphasized when i rolled the teles in my mc 275 originally but i also had an incredible midrange sense of presence and air that i didn't have with the stock mac tubes. bass was also more articulate.

i bought fisher branded teles for the preamp and put them in yesterday hoping the high end might calm down some but no luck. actually not a whole lot of change from the sylvania 12at7. so i started thinking about the tele 12ax7 tubes in my mc 275 and thought i should replace them with the stock tubes for a lark. well, it's completely tamed the brightness in my system. i've lost some rhythm and air though, and bass is a little syrupy in comparison; but at least it's not fatiguing at volume like it had been. it's also helped tame the sibilance from my grado sonata as an added bonus, suggesting the tele 12ax7 may actually have some emphasis in the upper midrange.

so i'd have to side with those claiming the telefunken 12ax7 tubes can be bright, at least in a modern mc 275. they also do a whole lot of other good things, though.

 

a little more on my recent 12ax7 tube rolling in my mc275. (i've got ribbed teles in the 12at7 spots and EH kt88 in the output slots.) so i had had teles in the 12ax7spots but it was just too much in your face dynamism and too much high end so i went back to the oem tubes as posted above.

then i got some baldwin labelled 12ax7 tubes from ebay that had excellent triode matching. i imagine they're GE or other american tube manufacturer rebadged. they're pretty nice sounding tubes. they don't quite have the extension on the low end as the teles did and have a little harsher top end. so they weren't the answer but they were cheap and would be good in another system likely if you need to find some cheap tubes to replace the oem tubes.

then i found some IEC labelled Mullards for a good price and wow, these are really sweet. i imagine in some systems they could be a little syrupy but great low end and midrange with not as much top end. cymbals no longer dominate like when the teles were in there now it's the whole rhythm section moving things along. talk about boogie factor. and incredible imaging compared to the oem tubes. (might have better triode matching) anyways i picked these up for just over 20 bucks each on ebay so they weren't much more than the baldwins either if you're looking for a more vintage sound in your system.

 

I've just been reading this thread and am very intrigued but also a little perplexed. I have decided to put in some fresh 12AX7s in my Jolida (as well as some tube rolling in the Bellari when that shows up) and there are three ways I can go. I can save some scratch and go with some Raytheon black plates, I can spend a bit more and go with some late '60s Mullards or I can throw all caution to the wind and go with some Teles. Now I was originally gung ho over trying the Teles based on what many here have said but after reading some of the posts on this thread I'm not so sure. I'd like to try the Teles and the Raytheons but I can't afford to do that (already know what the Mullards sound like and like them very much). I've got one shot and one shot only at this. I know only I can make up my mind and know what sounds good to my ear. I've recieved one email from a Jolida owner a few months ago saying that they weren't impressed with thet Teles but if any other Jolida owners would like to chime in it would be a big help.
Thanks guys

 

Another output tube worth considering for this amp is the SED Winged C 6550. I know a lot of people like the stock output tubes but I had a couple of bad ones which blew fuses in a particularly unpleasant scary.

You need to use either 4 KT88s or 4 6550s - don't mix and match.

I agree the Tele 12Ax7s sound great in this amp.

 

Well hey the Teles didn't sound great to me in my preamp but that's just me, my system. I'd say you gotta try some at some point so you know for sure what YOU think - that's the great thing with tubes, you can find something that appeals to you and screw what anyone else thinks. They're not all that expensive if you're patient and look for a while and if you don't like them you can turn around and resell them for at least what you paid unless you really get horned. Don't worry about NOS/NIB - get some nice used Teles with a lot of life still in them, not very expensive and they'll last a long time and hold resale value.

I think it's simply an issue of system sounds and equipment voicing - the Teles might be just the ticket in some systems/amp circuits and sound lackluster in others.

My only beef with Telefunkens is there's this sort of cultish attitude you run into sometimes where people claim they are objectively always "the" 12AX7 to have in terms of sound. I think it's more complicated than that.

 

I used to have a Jolida SJ-502A in which I used Mullard 12ax7a and 12at7 tubes (pre-IEC branded Mullard) and they sounded very, very good. BTW, I used original Svetlana (now called SED or Winged C) 6550C's. Those are great tubes, too, for the Jolida.

 

funny this thread reappeared this weekend as I've been tube rolling in my Mcintosh MC275. A few posts above you'll see where I left off. So I was loving the Mullard 12AX7s with the Tele 12AT7s but then I went and bought a Mcintosh c2300 preamp. I put Telefunken 12AX7s in the preamp before setting it up. I was overwhelmed with the sound but not exactly in a good way. Bass was extreme and highs were shrill. So I went back stock small tubes in the MC275 and it was alright but not much magic.

Put the Teles in the 12AT7 slots and things perked up so I bit the bullet and bought another set of Tele 12AX7s. Well, I've been quite impressed. Bass control is improved with a smooth high end and improved soundstage compared to stock. So it's all Teles for the small tubes for me, at least at the moment.

My theory is that the Teles may accentuate negative qualities when paired with other tubes. At least they can be temperamental with synergy.

 

Hey Everyone,

You may recognize me from other posts, but if not I am pretty uneducated about this stuff but am trying to learn more and more everyday through the help of this forum. I had never even considered switching tubes before as I didn't realize there was much of a difference between them. Anyhow, I have a fully restored Fisher 400 and was told I have JJ 12AX7 preamp tubes. I was wondering if these were any good, or if I should think about upgrading them? I'm currently running the Fisher with some Forte II's and a Rega P1.

Thanks much!
-Clipper

 

The 400 is a great amp. My good friend has one. Is there anything amiss with the way it sounds with the JJ tubes? Using New Old Stock tubes or even old used tubes will likely change the sound. Problem is that the way the sound will change is variable depending on your system and room. Google the name "Brent Jesse" and "tubes" together and you'll find a seller who has great descriptions of each tube's supposed sound. I've never bought from him but I've never heard anything bad about him.

i buy the majority of my tubes on ebay and just make sure it's an established seller with good feedback. There are lots of fake tubes and sellers that will try to pass a newer issue tube off as being a vintage 50's or 60's tube, so buyer beware and research well before using ebay.

 

I look at tube rolling as a great way to tweak your final sound. System a little bright? Throw in a Mullard or Shuguang tube. System a little dark? Try a Telefunken or Sovtek. I know - blanket recommendations! But seriously, it is hard to tell how different rooms/speakers/source/circuits will interact with different tubes. The only way is to find out for yourself. However I've usually had the best luck with NOS tubes.

 

Looks like I'm gonna stick with the Mullards. I like the way they sound in my system. I just pulled the trigger on a NOS pair of 60s IEC AXs. My 12 ATs are pre-IEC as well. They sound fabulous.

 

I do have a Jolida myself with 60s Mullards 12AT7 and 12AX7. Sounds great.

 

Hi,
It's been 16 months since I put this topic up. I just wanted to update y'all on what I've found personally by listening to many many 12ax7s in the phono stage of my MA2275.

The Tellies were good, very good even, but not the magic that had been promised. I used 2 smooth gray plates and they probably sound great in older gear, but in my newer Mac tube amp, not great!

Now get ready for this. As far as NOS tubes go, I was BLOWN AWAY by the 1960s Amperex Bugle Boys, white BB log, long, ribbed gray plates. WOW! They just sound fuller with a sweeter high end and extended bass to my ears. But what really made them kill the Tellies was the mid-range. It was more upfront and that just sounded better to me.

Who else beat the Tellies in my mind? RCA! What a great tube. The RCAs are pure MAGIC! They sound great over the entire spectrum.

I would then put the Tellies in 3rd place and above ALL new produuction tubes.

For new production, I think I like the Tung Sol reissues and the Sovtek LPS the best. I hate the EH 12ax7s. I haven't tried the Mullard reissues yet, but I will soon. I also haven't tried any 5751s yet, but I will when I can.

Thanks for reading this update. Overall, Telefunkens might be great in original Fishers, Scotts and HKs, but in newer tube amps, I don't think they live up to the hype.

I've been unemployed for the past 11 months, so I've had plenty of time to review these tubes. I listen to my MA2275 for about 8 hours per day.

Soulfully,
Matt The Cat

 

Matt,

I agree with you regarding the RCA's. They're seriously under-rated and usually priced right. I bought NOS RCAs for about $15 each. Loved them in my Primaluna PL2. They're now in my MC275. I've got Teles in the C220 line and phono sections. The Teles have a more robust sound and better frequency extension than the stock tubes. They certainly don't sound lush if that's what you're referring to as "magic". I may have to roll in some Bugle Boys one of these days.

 

Matt,

My husband has many new old stock Bugle Boy 12AX7's and they are known for being too bright in normal systems. They have a top end boost and a thinned out bass area, perfect for lumpy systems but they would never be recommended for someone who wants a balanced presentation. The little bugle guy on the glass is cute though. Too bad he burns off when the tube is used for a while.

RCAs have the same problem in the top but the bass stays put. Great tubes if your system needs more punch. Far from neutral though. I suggest that something in your system is out of whack.

 

I am using the pope 12ax7 which I believe is the same as the amperex bugle boy that you rated best. I agree it is the best sounding I have tried. These were a gift from a fellow member. Thanks Steve.

 

Of course the bugle boys and RCAs are not neutral! IMO, tubes should color the sound, at least a little bit. If I wanted neutral I'd have gotten a SS McIntosh. We all got into tubes because they DO color the sound, right? And if you're gonna color the sound and add some warmth to it, why not do it up right, with an Amperex Bugle Boy!

And AudioGirl, I completely disagree re: the bass response on the BBs. To my ears, it is not thinned out at all!

My review is of course my own opinion. Personally, I was amazed that the Teles didn't live up to the hype in my ears and in my equipment. For my money, in my phono stage, the BBs do the trick. Maybe it's my TT, maybe it's my tonearm or the pre-amp itself that needs a little sonic sweetening in my ears. It's what I expect from vinyl.

-MTC

 

In my phonostage the Telefunkens work very well -- very dynamic, clear as a bell, and detailed (a touch lean in the midbass, which gives them that clarity, but also a brighter overall tonality). The Telefunken ECC803S are even more extreme in all the pluses and minuses of this family of tubes, but, they are my absolute favorites.

Since so much is system dependent, and a matter of personal taste, it is nearly impossible to make any sort of recommendation. Still, the tube that seems to most often work in a wide range of applications, and which I never thought the sound was less than outstanding is 1960s Amperex Bugle Boys. That would be my one-size-fits-all choice. The Mullards that so many people also like have never been ideal in the various amps I've heard them in. They tend to be a bit muddled sounding, and in some applications, they actually sound phasey to me. 5751s are also usually terrific sounding, but, I am told, they are not electrically identical to 12AX7s (they have slightly lower gain) so they may not be drop in replacements. They do work well in my phonostage (Viva Fono).

 

Good synopsis. It's always refreshing to have someone with some recent experience to remind those who only read about it that certain audio "truths" are not universal. I too like the Amperex tubes. One thing to note however is that Amperex did not manufacture the tubes but branded them. Amperex was a US company and a subsidiary of Philips, even back into the '50s. The Amperex Holland, Bugle Boy tubes were actually made by Philips in their Herleen facility. Philips used some Mullard machinery from what I can gather and so their is a similarity between the Philips Herleen made tubes and the Mullard Blackburn made tubes. Philips bought Mullard in the '60s, so you can see where Philips really gathered some advantages in vacuum tube production.

Further, Philips had high demand for these tubes and so many Amperex labeled tubes were not made in Herleen Holland, but in other places as well. I have just boxed some old Amperex Bugle Boy 6DJ8 and 12AT7 tubes which were made in Germany by Siemens, the UK by Mullard, France by La Radiotechnique, and of course Holland. Philips has a factory in Eindhoven also but I have not seen tubes from there recently. They probably had some more common tubes such as the 12AX7 also made in the USA for them as it was a common practice to relabel batches of tubes when your production schedules could not meet demand or it was simply more economical in a particular market. I have not seen any of those USA relabels recently, it's just a guess as I have seen other brands occasionally use US mfr such as GE and Sylvania to supplement their own production.
-Bill

 

Hey Larry,
5751s are drop-ins for 12ax7s and have 30% less gain than their ax7 counterparts. It is safe to drop them in and dig 'em.

-Matt

 

I've always felt Brimar 12AX7's are as good as Telfunken and Mullard at a fraction of the price.

 

I tried a 50s Brimar longplate in my Bellari phono preamp and it went microphonic within a few hours. I sent it back and exchanged it for a Tele ax smoothplate. The Tele sounds fantastic there. I did find out from Brent Jessee (whom I got both tubes from) that the Brimar longplates have a slight tendancy to go microphonic. He said when you get a good one they sound fantastic but if it goes microphonic well then...
As far as costing a fraction of the price of Mullards and Teles... My longplate cost much more than the smoothplate I ended up with.

 

My husband says that the ribbed plate and the smooth plate Telefunkens sound totally identical. Do you find this is true? People seem to pay more for the smooth plates.

 

I've read that opinion elsewhere, too, but haven't had the opportunity to test both out.

 

I've got Mazda/Brimar 5751's in my C-J Premier 11A input stage (a 12AX7 with 30% less gain) and they sound great.