Test to Determine Isopropyl Alcohol Attack on LP Vinyl

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Koptapad, Jul 1, 2008.

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  1. Koptapad

    Koptapad Forum Resident Thread Starter

    The following is a test to determine the effect of isopropyl alcohol on old LP vinyl.
    Sample: Early 1970s? Cream - Wheels Of Fire
    Sample size: 7 sq in. with duplicate. Total is 14 sq in.
    Sample Prep: Wash with dishwashing detergent, rinse, dry with compressed air.
    Procedure: Weigh sample. Place in solution for 6 days at room temp. Dry with compressed air and re-weigh.

    Duplicate Results Given Below
    100% DI water 0.128% and 0.146% weight GAIN
    5% isopropanol 0.143% and 0.136% weight GAIN
    10% isopropanol 0.129% and 0.123% weight GAIN
    50% isopropanol 0.0962% and 0.108% weight GAIN
    100% isopropanol 0.0917% and 0.136% weight LOSS

    Observations: No visual difference between samples (vinyl and solutions). No apparent breakdown of the PVC. When quickly drawn across white paper, no black marks were seen. No difference seen when the PVC was scratched and scraped with a knife. No difference in sample flexibility.

    I’ve read about concerns of plasticizer leech-out on LPs with alcohol. Clearly the weight loss at 100% isopropanol is a concern but occasional cleaning with a 5-10% isopropanol solution is probably very safe for LP vinyl.
     
  2. BigE

    BigE Forum Resident

    I use straight Everclear for the first pass on garage sale and thrift store finds on the VPI 16.5.

    Seems to do a good job on the smoke residue and fingerprints. Besides, you can drop a shot in your cranberry juice whilst you wait for the motor to cool down after the fifth or sixth slab you clean!

    Eric
     
  3. JBStephens

    JBStephens I don't "like", "share", "tweet", or CARE. In Memoriam

    Location:
    South Mountain, NC
    Depending on whether or not you live in a "nanny" state (PA for example), you can buy pure alcohol at the drug store. It's much cheaper than paying state taxes to clean your records. :)
     
  4. Dr. Bogenbroom

    Dr. Bogenbroom I'm not a Dr. but I play one on SteveHoffman.TV

    Location:
    Anchor Point
    I love it when people discredit the FUD. There is something to be said for the scientific method. Thanks for doing this test!
     
  5. Been using 70% isopropyl alcohol for 40 years on my LPs with no adverse effects. (Wow! that's a mighty long time!) :D

    HG
     
    Heckto35 likes this.
  6. 4_everyman

    4_everyman The Sexual Intellectual

    Location:
    Gillette, Wyoming
    Agreed. There's no substitute for the empirical method. :thumbsup:
     
  7. jfall

    jfall Forum Resident

    did you repeat the test on the same sample of vinyl? If so, wouldn't you expect the preconditioning of one test might influence the results of the others? I would be interested in seing the test repeated with 100% IPA as the first test condition.

    The loss (from 100% IPA) of aboout 0.1% is about the same change in mass as the gain from the other test conditions. Do you think any of the gains or losses in mass are significant? Why would 10% IPA lead to a gain in mass?

    BTW, I recently saw your electron micrograph pictures of a stylus and record grooves, very cool.
     
  8. Raunchnroll

    Raunchnroll Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    Thanks for that.

    A couple decades ago I knew a vinyl nut where I worked. Just so happens he was a chemical engineer who developed the same or similar formula's used in vinyl LPs but for industrial applications. He held at least one patent I recall for some blend of vinyl. Anyway - an amazing font of information. We used to experiment on worthless LPs, used various cleaning methods and chemicals on 'em, and used the microscopes to see the results. He'd explain the scientific factors that would go on between vinyl and some horrible thing we'd put on 'em. I did learn that most acids are not good for vinyl....that was fun to experiment with. Another favorite target of his were record cleaning compounds and such that the audio guys were pushing so much in the 80's. He said if people even knew that plain old water would do better than most of them they wouldn't waste their money. Some of his advice and information stuck with me all these years.

    He was emphatic that isopropyl alcohol is absolutely harmless to common record vinyl. Its PH is essentially the same as water and it leaves no residue. It sucks the water out of the oils, dirt, organic matter, and micro biology that live down in the grooves, weakening or making them brittle and easy to flush or remove. Its safe for human tissue and electronics, and used by professional archivists and restorers who clean and/or preserve different materials.

    Vinyl is an extremely stable, inert substance and when molded properly is more akin to a flexible piece of glass rather than plastic. Once the elements that make up a vinyl batch re blended under melting point heat they aren't going to separate and leak (or leech out as audio heads like to put it) any more than iron oxides or selenium in glass will leak out when its washed with chemicals. He showed me how common things like salt can affect vinyl (it can etch it depending on its strength). Thats why fingerprints need to have their oil and water based residues neutralized and/or removed. Thats where iso alcohol and especially water come in. He used iso alcohol and water himself on his records and was not a fan of soaps and cleaners because you never know what chemicals could lie in them (the people concocting them don't want anyone to know either do they?) and because many leave an adhering micro film that is more difficult to remove completely. I've used iso and water now for decades on my vinyl and will put them up against any machine cleaned LP anyday. In fact I occasionally get LPs that have been cleaned on VPI's etc. While these do work and can save labor, in cases of some used LPs my hand done water/iso methods will remove visible residue that wasn't 'gotten' earlier.
     
    Heckto35 likes this.
  9. The weight loss for 100% isopropyl is probably due to the fact that the isopropyl evaporated completely off the LP, whereas the weight gain for isopropyl-water mixtures is due to the presence of water that has failed to evaporate.

    Also, what did you weigh it with? These results are so tiny that it could be measurement error.
     
  10. ShawnMcCann

    ShawnMcCann A Still Tongue Makes A Happy Life

    Location:
    The Village
    I'd be interested in trying this. What are the steps you take, brushes/pads, etc.?
     
  11. DrJ

    DrJ Senior Member

    Location:
    Davis, CA, USA
    Nice job Koptapad, thanks for sharing this.
     
  12. Koptapad

    Koptapad Forum Resident Thread Starter

    No, the test was not repeated on the same pieces. Certainly preconditioning could affect the next round mainly because the vinyl already absorbed water the first time. I cannot do any more tests (on this anyway!)

    Whether the gain and loss is significant is a good question. You would really need a larger body of work (such as oven drying tests) to make a concrete judgement. This is a typical method we use to determine if a plastic material is compatable with a chemical. Usually the test time is 2 or 4 weeks under the assumption that the chemical would always, or often, be in contact with the plastic. In this case, it would only be periodic cleaning. When we do the test we look for significant weight gain or loss, swelling, or a change in material intergity, color, etc.

    I would say the 50% and 100% results could be significant, especially for the obsessive-minded. PVC does absorb water as do many plastics, and the basic range is 0.04-0.5% absorption of water depending on the type of PVC.

    I think the weight gain of the 10% sample is the absorption of the water.


    I used a Mettler analytical balance to 0.0001g. It’s analytical grade, fairly new, and calibrated monthly. You could testify at the Supreme Court with data from it. The weight differences averaged about 5 milligrams.You are probably right about the failure of the water to evaporate because… it was absorbed into the plastic. While the piece was on the balance, the weight was rock steady; no evaporation there.

    Yes, there was error as you can see from the duplicates.
     
  13. Buzzcat

    Buzzcat Bankrupt Radio Lifer

    Location:
    Madtown, WI
  14. bangsezmax

    bangsezmax Forum Resident

    Location:
    Durham, NC, USA
    Fear. Uncertainty. Doubt.
     
    Heckto35 likes this.
  15. Dave W S

    Dave W S New Member

    With a scale like that I bet you never get shorted. :cool:

    Uh seriously though, if the water isn't evaporating because it's being absorbed and the alcohol is harmless, do you think it's best to use pure alcohol with no water mixed in at all?
     
  16. jfall

    jfall Forum Resident

    The water isn't being absorbed permanently. There is no reason to avoid water when cleaning your records.

    These tests just show there is now gross loss of mass from using IPA at any dilution.

    Of course, it is still possible that there is a small amount of plasticiser being leached out, but I don't think it should do significant damage.
     
  17. MikeyH

    MikeyH Stamper King

    Location:
    Berkeley, CA
    It's actually not a good solvent for general purposes.

    I have amassed a range of cleaning liquids. Most discs only need standard 'Miracle Record Cleaner', but I've had to use at various times:

    - alcohol
    - turpentine
    - concentrated citrus oil ('orange glo')
    - concentrated bathroom descaler

    while none of these seemed to harm a vinyl disc, I certainly wouldn't recommend any for regular cleaning. But they have a place in my cleaning set, and each has on at least one disc been a complete success for a particular contaminant that wasn't going anywhere with other cleaners.

    Most of these will take the pads off your cleaning brush in a jiffy, too. Don't use your best one.
     
  18. Raunchnroll

    Raunchnroll Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    A myth. Alcohol doesn't leach any substances out of the bonded vinyl compound.
     
  19. Koptapad

    Koptapad Forum Resident Thread Starter

    I just ran a UV spectrophotometer scan (800-200 nm) on the 100 and 50% IPA solutions. The scan was identical to fresh controls, no difference. If there is any plasticizers leeched out, it's super low and below detection limits.
     
    Vinyl Archaeologist likes this.
  20. MikeyH

    MikeyH Stamper King

    Location:
    Berkeley, CA
    If you try to use a concentrated (>50%) IPA type solution, grime and dirt and oils on the disc will dissolve in it but the solution will evaporate and deposit it back before you can get it off. Lower % is probably easier to handle.

    Remember cleaning is about getting what you want off the surface into solution (or suspension), and then getting the solution off the surface. Same as a floor mop. There's easily a point where you're just moving dirt around, whatever RCM or fluid you espouse.
     
  21. Done A Ton

    Done A Ton Birdbrain

    Location:
    Rural Kansas
    Did you try the windowpane? Very good for vinyl, if I recall correctly.
     
  22. LeeS

    LeeS Music Fan

    Location:
    Atlanta
    Audio Intelligent uses just a little amount (5% or so) in one of their cleaners. I have not noticed it affects any of my records.
     
  23. erniebert

    erniebert Shoe-string audiophile

    Location:
    Toronto area
    We get 99% ISO at work in 45-gallon drums. I've been using it on my LPs for quite some time now. I use the ISO, then rinse with water (while the ISO is still on there) and then use ISO again.
     
  24. Sckott

    Sckott Hand Tighten Only.

    Location:
    South Plymouth, Ma
    2 parts Smirnoff vodka, 1 part ISO and 1 part water.
     
  25. Dave W S

    Dave W S New Member

    Thanks, I didn't think so but you never know. Well I never know it seems.
     
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