“The Aesthetics of Remastering Reissues”

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Ben Adams, May 22, 2018.

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  1. teag

    teag Forum Resident

    Location:
    Colorado
    That is how it appears to work when Mr. Steve Hoffman is involved.
     
  2. Lemon Curry

    Lemon Curry (A) Face In The Crowd

    Location:
    Mahwah, NJ
    I feel like there is a lot of Red Herring chasing here.

    For the labels that use "mastered from analog master" when that makes no sense, or master from CD, etc., they deserve our scorn for trying to dupe the general public.

    But for us here, we know when the original tape sources are appropriate for mastering vinyl. Beatles, Kinks, Dylan... the recent pressings from original tapes sound wonderful, sometimes revelatory.
     
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  3. dobyblue

    dobyblue Forum Resident

    It became the matter when you responded to him with a redundant question, redundant if as you've acknolwedged "pretty much anyone" considers 3rd gen tapes aren't "well done".

    Looking around this very forum, with respect to post #12, there are PLENTY of posters who understand the difference between recorded and mixed all analogue and digitally recorded and mixed to analogue tape. It's why we have many threads discussing the entire lineage of albums and specific tape stocks and consoles used.

    Fortunately there are still producers out there willing to discuss the matter too. There are a number of albums I know I myself have uncovered the lineage on and potential for fully analogue vinyl releases including the first three DMB albums via conversations with Steve Lillywhite, Tool's AEnima was recorded to tape and mixed to 1/2" tape (analogue mixing desk) thanks to info from David Bottrill (confirmed by Adam Jones), and Pearl Jam's Ten was recorded to tape and mixed simultaneously to 1/2" tape and DAT thanks to discussions with Tim Palmer. I expect Ten has never seen an AAA release, but we're hoping AEnima may see an AAA cut soon thanks to discussions Tool's guitarist Adam Jones has been involved in here.

    But the glaring logic fail with the look at this forum post to me is, if they were indeed reading this forum and trying to appease audiophiles, WTF is the loudness wars raging harder than ever?
     
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  4. dobyblue

    dobyblue Forum Resident

    Dear Josh - if you use the best sources possible and give us a lovely dynamic mastering instead of sonic sludge, it's all good bud.

    I'd much rather have a fully dynamic mastering from a 16/44.1 DAT than a vinyl aggressively digitally mastered from a 24/192 mastering created from the original analogue master tape where the recording and mixing was also done analogue.
     
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  5. Mr Bass

    Mr Bass Chevelle Ma Belle

    Location:
    Mid Atlantic
    I don't quite understand the shadow boxing here. This discussion only makes sense if there are are no mint original/promo pressings to compare to the reissue. I do this all the time except when the original is unobtainium. Then I look for a review where someone has access to the unobtainium and made the comparison. If the reissue sounds as good or better than the original who cares what they are doing in the kitchen? It will not even give you food poisoning.
     
  6. Ben Adams

    Ben Adams Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ, USA
    Do you notice anything different about who Steve has been working for? Oh yeah - a specifically audiophile label. Which is fantastic - but it’s not the conditions under which most mastering engineers have to work.
     
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  7. teag

    teag Forum Resident

    Location:
    Colorado
    SH is one. Bernie Grundman is another. Chris Bellman is another. These 3 are among the top. most respected out there. There could be more I don't know about for sure. More often than not, if not always, they go AAA.

    I wonder if Josh Bonati has ever released an AAA record? Anyone know?
     
  8. Ben Adams

    Ben Adams Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ, USA
    Again, they all can only cut what they’re given. I believe it was Bellman who cut the AAA Black Sabbath Sabotage for Rhino nearly a decade ago, featuring a chunk of tape damage at the beginning of Side 2 - as it was cut from the American WB master, not the UK master without damage. Just like MLutthans described in his post above, it could have been corrected with a flown-in segment - but the label said no, it has to be all-analogue from the tape.

    Grundman cut all the Pink Floyd remastered from digital. There were members here who bitched even though his cuts are exquisite. He also got raked over the coals here for the sound of the US and UK mono reissues of Are You Experienced - which were from analog.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2018
  9. teag

    teag Forum Resident

    Location:
    Colorado
    Examples of anything can be cherry picked.

    What about Banati? Any AAA releases by him?
     
  10. Vaughan

    Vaughan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Essex, UK
    This is likely a thread I should stay well away from. I tend to think there are instances where some people simply have a hang up or two. In 2018, it's easy to see the analog sound as an affectation. Once Analog was the thing, but it wasn't the thing because it was better than digital, exactly - it was just that digital really wasn't a thing at all. Once digital came into being, and matured, it developed it's own sound. From what I know, it has its own aesthetic. Better or worse, that's a whole other matter.

    I personally try to judge everything on its own merits. I care a lot less about how it's done, than I do about how it sounds. Different things will suit different methods. Sparse electronic dance music is better suited to digital as far as I can tell.

    Along with this eternal debate we have a set of music fans who have grown nostalgic for times passed. Hence vinyl has come back - which I'm convinced is as much part of a record label plan, since vinyl is built-in Rights Management. Some people don't want, say, Dark Side of the Moon on vinyl, they want the Dark Side of the Moon (randomly chosen title) from the early 70's.

    It's part of feeling that digital is somehow evil. I don't see or feel that at all. Every time I read about some master tape being damaged, or the story of having to bake tapes to get them to play back, or of tapes sitting in a cupboard or vault somewhere covered in moss, I'm reminded of how easy it is to store the music we love for future generations. Not to mention that each iteration of usage doesn't in any way damage or harm the source. We have digital masters at very high bits rates, but from what I know (which admittedly isn't a great deal), you only need a 16-bit sample rate to capture ALL of an analog signal. Nothing is lost.

    Of course, analog tape and a pure digital recording will have different characteristics. I see that as a good thing, rather than a being a problem with digital. It's an additional tool in the box, as it were. In the end, as I've said, I want good mastering - but I'm not about to tell mastering engineers how best to do that, or to be disparaging about something just because it doesn't fit some ideal in my head.

    Yeah, I just shouldn't get involved here.......
     
  11. Ben Adams

    Ben Adams Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ, USA
    :laughup::laughup::laughup:

    Dunno. Don't really care about checking.
     
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  12. Uglyversal

    Uglyversal Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sydney
    That was exactly what I needed to read as I have got into endless arguments with people in this forum regarding some of the things you have said, they were my assumptions but obviously they weren't too far from what you are describing. Some people just want to drink the kool aid and apparently they like it:(

    Thank you so much for posting that.
     
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  13. Uglyversal

    Uglyversal Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sydney
    Even a second generation tape should not sound as dull as some of the pressings out there, some home made cassettes sound better than some reissues!
     
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  14. Max Florian

    Max Florian Forum Resident

    @Vaughan that’s a terrific post there. It was a pleasure to read it. Thanks.
     
  15. teag

    teag Forum Resident

    Location:
    Colorado
    Because he is Mr. Digital with a vested interest. Thats obvious.
     
  16. Cassius

    Cassius On The Beach

    Location:
    Lafayette, Co
    I get this Tape Op in the mail last month, so this is kind of old news but I'll bite.

    "Nothing is lost"
    This is just not a factual statement.
    A low res transfer that you suggested, by guys that rely on graphs and not their ears doesn't cut it for me.
    I've never heard a digitally stepped vinyl reissue that beat a copy mastered AAA from the original cutting reel. Ever. A few are close. So for the music recorded during the 1950s well into the 1990s, I want the AAA. Every. Damn. Time. As such reissues usually don;'t even enter the equation. I understand why copyright owners/controllers don't want to deal: it's much cheaper and much less risk to send a dude a file. Believe me I'd be happy to sell expensive 1st pressings I own if a recent reissue could best it, but it just about never happens. Maybe 4-5 times has this happened in a collection of thousands of records.

    I get it if the masters are gone fine, if the masters are beat to hell fine, put out a copy for the folks that want a reissue but most of these decisions come down to just a cop out to be cheap and play it safe.

    90s-Present day recording, sure they probably only exist in the digital domain, so duh it won't be a AAA release. We will make do with what exists.
    A 24/192 cutting file from a transfer down from the master should theoretically outperform a 3rd or 4th generation cutting dub if thats's all that's left, but this scenarios is quite rare. If the tape is shot or missing, it's likely been that way for some time.

    People can enjoy whatever they wish, but please don't speak for others with the taste and preference for the best possible source. That's the premise this forum was founded on.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2018
  17. Max Florian

    Max Florian Forum Resident

    I loved Vaughan’s post, but is so true.
     
  18. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    There are some well-known hit albums that were originally recorded digitally, but the label swears up and down that the masters they used for the hi-rez version were originally analog. Maybe the masters they used are analog safeties, maybe not, but they shouldn't lie and decieve like that. But, I understand why they do it: to avoid the consumers happy.
     
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  19. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    Why?
     
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  20. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    If Mr. Hoffman doesn't get the actual first gen 2-track master, whether it be digital or analog, he won't do the project.
     
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  21. Vaughan

    Vaughan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Essex, UK
    I take everything you wrote on board, except this. In no way can you construe my post as "speak[ing] for others". I use the word "I" around 16 times in the post you quote, which should indicate to you that I am giving *my* opinion. I'm not sure how you can read that as an attempt to speak for others. I don't buy Vinyl any longer, I'm not interested in it. For me it's a retrograde step. That doesn't mean I'm saying others shouldn't buy it too, in fact I've been vocal on the board about how much I appreciate, and demand, choice. You like Vinyl, great!

    When I say "nothing is lost", I'm talking about the music. A 16-bit copy of a master tape will capture everything that is on that tape. I'm sorry, but that is a fact. The Nyguist Theorem proves this beyond a shadow of a doubt. What you feel is different on Vinyl is something else - but it's not the music itself - as in the notes played.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018
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  22. action pact

    action pact Music Omnivore

    I understand the importance of one's personal "brand" and do respect the integrity behind such a professional policy, but I also suspect that most mastering engineers are not financially comfortable enough to hold such a strict line about what projects they will and will not accept based on their own personal preferences and/or philosophies.

    When I'm at my own (non-music-related) job, I may voice an objection now and then, but at the end of the day, I do whatever the people paying me tell me to do.

    What I'm getting at here is it's easy to look at the credits and blame the mastering engineer for a crap job, but they might not actually be the villain; they might just be following whatever direction, however misguided, that they received from their client ("I want it loud!") and just did the best they could within the imposed limitations.

    I work in advertising production, and deal with this regularly. Advertisers with a poor understanding of what competent marketing and/or graphic design involves often instruct me to make what I consider to be poor moves all the time. I do my best to lead them in the right direction, but have to back down when they insist that they want what they want. People are often their own worst enemy!

    I also wonder if the mastering engineers are ever able to request that their name is left off of projects that they are not proud of.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018
  23. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    @Steve Hoffman could address this.

    I know. I've been telling people on this forum that very thing for vears, and it doesn't seem to sink it. It is always the producer's fault...unless the producer and the engineer are the same person. Then, they are under the thumb of the client.

    Yes, they do.
     
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  24. action pact

    action pact Music Omnivore

    A lot of folks seem to not understand how things work. Numerous times I've seen posts like, "Steve, can you please remaster such-and such," as if he can just waltz into a record company's tape vault and pick anything he wants, and then get it released.
     
  25. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    There is so much politics involved in the business that it's a miracle that anything gets released. Even when all parties want something released, tons of issues can come up.
     
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