The Beatles - Capitol and EMI Tapes

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by PetSite, Nov 8, 2014.

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  1. empirelvr

    empirelvr "That's *just* the way it IS!" - Paul Anka

    Location:
    Virginia, USA
    Capitol's judgement was a subjective one. On average, American recording practices favored a "wetter" and more "in your face" sound, which EMI in the UK didn't (in Capitol's view) have. On an objective level, there was nothing wrong with the tapes, how they sounded, or how they were made. Capitol just thought they didn't sound like they should. Strictly a judgement call.
     
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  2. teag

    teag Forum Resident

    Location:
    Colorado
    Got it. For the most part, I wish they had used different judgement.....with a few exceptions.
     
  3. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Fortunately not all that much stuff was actually "Dexterized", despite common beliefs.
     
  4. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Remember, EMI often sent Capitol tapes that were dubbed at +8 or +10! That is 10 db over 0 VU! Playing that back on an Ampex, pinning the meters, adding the fact that it was a CCIR EQ'd tape played back NAB through an Altec monitor probably made the thing sound pretty bad. The Capitol engineering staff probably thought the people at EMI Engineering were total incompo's.

    Even WHO'S NEXT wasn't +10!
     
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  5. teag

    teag Forum Resident

    Location:
    Colorado
    Why would they do that? Wonder if they did the same thing when they sent tapes to Germany and other countries?
     
  6. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Why? To prevent added tape hiss during copying and to saturate the tape, a form of dynamic compression. Some (not all) British studios did that right into the 1970s to avoid the dreaded Dolby A. Trident didn't, they used Dolby and I curse them for it.
     
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  7. jtiner

    jtiner Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maine
    So it's conceivable that the original EMI tapes may still be in the Capitol vaults along with a direct copy (probably flat) and then another copy of the flat copy. Does anyone know if all of the potential Capitol processing was done at the same time? That is, if a track was getting everything (EQ, echo, channel shift/phase change for Duophonic, compression/limiting, etc.) were all of those electronics in the chain so that they were all applied at the same time on that one tape copy?
     
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  8. slane

    slane Forum Resident

    Location:
    Merrie England
    And what about EMI copies made for themselves - I'm thinking about the dubs needed for Oldies and the Red & Blue albums etc - they just seem to be 1:1 copies and don't seem to have been overloaded?

    Going back to the mono 'Second Album' (specifically listening to the 2004 CD), those tracks DO seem overloaded and loud, but I would put that down to Capitol's 'work' on them (adding EQ and compression to all the tracks - once they had folded down the stereo mixes for 6 of the tracks). I can't see the reason being EMI's dubbing.
     
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  9. jtiner

    jtiner Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maine
    I always assumed they used the patch panel to directly connect the outputs/inputs of the two ATR's and set the level controls on each for unity, but that's a complete guess on my part.
     
  10. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    You're not understanding me. Nowhere did I say that an EMI copy tape sounded bad. I said that the poor studio in America trying to play it back on a system that couldn't handle the EQ and the high level had a bad sounding result.
     
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  11. ohnothimagen

    ohnothimagen "Live music is better!"

    Location:
    Canada
    You don't have Long Tall Sally? Want me to rip ya my old mono copy?:D

    Is it 'cleaner' than Capitol's album tape, meaning Second Album? I'd be brazen to say it is...
     
  12. slane

    slane Forum Resident

    Location:
    Merrie England
    I'm sure I have a rip somewhere, I just haven't looked. But if you wanna go ahead and compare to the mono Second Album, I'd be interested to see what you think.
     
  13. slane

    slane Forum Resident

    Location:
    Merrie England
    I think I understand what you're saying. But wouldn't that mean that every tape Capitol got from EMI sounded terrible to them?
     
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  14. ohnothimagen

    ohnothimagen "Live music is better!"

    Location:
    Canada
    My Second Album is stereo, so that's out, sorry...
     
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  15. Dinstun

    Dinstun Forum Resident

    Location:
    Middle Tennessee
    If Capitol's practice was to re-EQ all tapes received from EMI to create their master, would there be any need for the use of a CCIR machine? Can the problems created by playing a CCIR tape on a NAB machine be mostly or completely corrected with equalization?
     
  16. jtiner

    jtiner Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maine
    That was my thought/question as well. I don't think the CCIR/NAB curves are complex, and if I understand correctly aren't huge to begin with, perhaps 1 or 2 db. I'm sure there's some impact on S/N, but it's probably negligible. I think the EQ for both also depends on tape speed, but I'm assuming that 1/4" stuff sent to Capitol would always be 15ips. I'm just pulling this out of my hat, I don't really know for sure.

    EDIT: If Capitol did simply apply EQ instead of making a CCIR/NAB dub, then that's one less tape copy. I'd still like to know if Capitol made all of their changes (EQ, Duophonic, compression/limiting, echo) all at once in a single dub.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2017
  17. slane

    slane Forum Resident

    Location:
    Merrie England
    Now I'm confused...

    I found the copy I have of the mono 'Long Tall Sally' album (purportedly a DESS rip), and LTS & ICYN seem to be the UK mixes.

    Either:
    The DESS version has the wrong mixes on it.
    What I have is not actually the true DESS version.
    The DESS version I have is from a 'revised' mono LP.
    The original LP had the UK mixes, not the US mixes.

    For the last to be the case, something would have to be off with the dates (re original LP release and/or mixing of the UK versions).

    Or did later reissues substitute mixes? Or is the version I have just fake/wrong?
     
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  18. ohnothimagen

    ohnothimagen "Live music is better!"

    Location:
    Canada
    Unfortunately we're a little busy on the homefront right now, getting ready to move into our new house, so it might be a couple of weeks before I have the time to check my copy of Long Tall Sally to see what's what. I had no idea DESS did that one, by the way...
     
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  19. McLover

    McLover Senior Member

    Full track mono and half track Stereo are 1/4" formats as a standard. And that's been a standard since 1949, and even earlier. And most of the time a master tape or a dub master will be on a 10.5" metal or plastic reel per industry standard.
     
  20. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    This.
     
  21. DRM

    DRM Forum Resident

     
  22. Maranatha5585

    Maranatha5585 BELLA + RIP In Memoriam

    Location:
    Down South
    Thanks you for the background story Steve..
     
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  23. DotKom11

    DotKom11 Forum Resident

    Which albums and tracks were "Dexterized?" I know the Second Album was drenched in reverb but was that the extent of the added reverb?
     
  24. Lemon Curry

    Lemon Curry (A) Face In The Crowd

    Location:
    Mahwah, NJ
    I recently picked up an original mono Canadian Long Tall Sally. No way that was mastered from vinyl. It's a dry mix, as opposed to the US, although it it is clearly a further generation down from the UK.
     
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  25. MarkTheShark

    MarkTheShark Senior Member

    Some pressings of the U.S. Rubber Soul have added reverb.
     
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