The Beatles "Help!" and "Rubber Soul" original 1965 stereo mixes?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by AlanDistro, Aug 12, 2012.

  1. Gems-A-Bems

    Gems-A-Bems Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Duke City
    I've wondered about that for awhile. His claim, if I remember correctly, was that they were done years later by someone else. Perhaps he was half-correct, and he merely signed-off on the original stereo mixes without personal involvement or any knowledge of what it was he was signing.
     
  2. Lance Hall

    Lance Hall Senior Member

    Location:
    Fort Worth, Texas
    He may have just heard about it third hand.

    Even in 1965 people must have thought they were terribly balanced mono mixes after all the great hard hitting mono mixes up to that point.

    If my sister company in America had done that to my work without my permission and I found out I would be very angry. Nobody wants their producer reputation damaged.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2017
  3. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

  4. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Nope. Most of PPM was mixed to mono and stereo simultaneously, and Martin devoted a session just to recording a piano overdub for the stereo mix of Money.
     
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  5. Gems-A-Bems

    Gems-A-Bems Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Duke City
    Man, that "Money" track always seems to be a spanner in the works.
     
  6. A well respected man

    A well respected man Some Mother's Son

    Location:
    Madrid, Spain
    I wouldn't. He made unique mixes for the American market, and surely he was aware of the differences in the configuration and sound of the albums. Someone as professional as he must have been concerned about how his work was presented to millions of people (biggest market of his work).
     
  7. I don't recall where I read this - I think it might be in his book "The Summer Of Love: The Making of Sgt.Pepper"; but according to George Martin, one of the higher ups at EMI called him into their office to complain at how stereo LPs were sounding out of balance, on the MONO record players of the day, due to left/right/centre stereo mixing style. He was asked if he would kindly do something about this; he obliged, albeit briefly.

    I don't recall exactly how this found it's way into a book about Pepper given that it affected Rubber Soul /We can Work It Out/Day Tripper; I think he was recounting it as an example of the kind of technical pressures he and the engineers tended to be under at EMI; he also mentions the difficulties in making discs that were as loud and bassy as discs imported from the US, at the wish of The Beatles. "We want it like that, George" ... "Make it sound like that, George"...
     
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  8. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    These were the unique US mixes to that point:

    mono:
    You Can't Do That
    And I Love Her
    Long Tall Sally
    I Call Your Name
    I'll Cry Instead
    I'll Be Back
    When I Get Home
    Any Time At All
    She's A Woman
    I Feel Fine

    stereo:
    Long Tall Sally
    I Call Your Name

    Other than possibly I Feel Fine/She's A Woman (where it's unclear if the echo was added by Martin or at Capitol), that's mostly a pretty random list. Some songs were initially mixed for the US because they were needed, then remixed later, probably because the tapes were sent directly to Capitol and not retained at EMI. Some were mixed at the same session for seemingly unexplained reasons. And presumably the long I'll Cry Instead was sent for film purposes.

    All of that is to say, it doesn't appear as if there was any concerted effort to provide unique mixes to the US.

    And while the comments were made after the fact, and thus should be read with some caution, Martin has indicated that at the time he was too busy for deep thought on such issues, and that many decisions were made quickly, without much thought into how mono and stereo may differ, etc.

    It also seems unlikely Martin would cut off his nose to spite his face rather than, say just talk to Capitol about their (non) use of mono mixes.
     
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  9. A well respected man

    A well respected man Some Mother's Son

    Location:
    Madrid, Spain
    The flaw with taht argument is that nobody complained earlier, even though AHDN and BFS had been mixed in that whole stereo spectrum. And it wouldn't explain why he didn't keep on mixing like that after RS.
     
  10. ohnothimagen

    ohnothimagen "Live music is better!"

    Location:
    Canada
    It's been a while since I've heard "We Can Work It Out" and "Day Tripper" in stereo, so somebody refresh my memory: were they mixed in the same hard right/left style as the rest of the Rubber Soul material? I seem to recall the stereo mixes were a bit more balanced, like the Help! and Beatles For Sale stereo tracks...
     
  11. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Other than the main harmonium track in WCWIO being mixed center, nope. Vocals on the right.

    Yesterday...and Today [CD]
     
  12. Blue Cactus

    Blue Cactus Forum Resident

    Location:
    Illinois
    They were mixed the same way as Rubber Soul was.
     
  13. A well respected man

    A well respected man Some Mother's Son

    Location:
    Madrid, Spain
    My point is, he was aware of the differences in the American market. He was asked to send early mixes, he even had to record Bad Boy and Dizzy Miss Lizzy for a US album.

    Of course, this is just especulation as to why he mixed RS two-track style. But this theory seems the most plausible to me:

    -Mono was the absolute priority and the US was the biggest market, so I'm sure he preferred to have good mono sound in the US than a better stereo mix.
    -He probably didn't have a say to what Capitol did with the tracks (duophonic, fold-downs, echo...), so his only solution to avoid that kind of fold-down would be to mix like he did when working with two tracks.
    -The coincidence that this stereo mix happened just after the US Help! (the only folddown of four-track stereo), and that Martin never returned to it afterwords (Capitol using true mono in Rubber Soul and later albums).

    It's just a theory, but I think it makes sense.
     
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  14. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    At a high level. But it's not at all clear if Martin actually heard the US albums, or even kept track of what he sent to the US.
     
  15. A well respected man

    A well respected man Some Mother's Son

    Location:
    Madrid, Spain
    Of course, I'm not saying it's proven. It's just the hypothesis that makes the most sense to me. I haven't read a better explanation yet.
     
  16. Price.pittsburgh

    Price.pittsburgh Forum Resident

    Location:
    Florida
    Yeah, I remember on the threads on here that dealt with the 2014 US album cds that one of the few compliments for Yesterday & Today was that the stereo We Can Work It Out was a mix that hadn't been available on cd until then.
     
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  17. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Same for Day Tripper.
     
  18. ohnothimagen

    ohnothimagen "Live music is better!"

    Location:
    Canada
    I have no doubt that EMI at least probably kept track of what they sent to Capitol in the U.S., not sure about Martin personally though. It wouldn't surprise me if he never heard any of the US albums until years later, if ever. I can only imagine George Martin's reactions to some of the Dexterizations and whatnot:laugh:
     
  19. Trashman

    Trashman Forum Resident

    Location:
    Wisconsin
    I suspect that a high percentage of people listening to Beatles mono LPs in 1965 were using something that looked like this...

    [​IMG]

    And while that kind of record player can deliver a lot of fun, I doubt many people were using it to compare nuances of mono mixes.
     
  20. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Exactly. Mine was the Webcor in the top right corner. Blue Chip Stamps Webcor..jpg
     
  21. FritzL

    FritzL Adrift & Dumbfounded

    Location:
    Costa Mesa, CA
    Looks pretty close to what my brother and I had except we had either a quarter or a half dollar scotch-taped to the tone arm above the needle to prevent skipping.
     
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  22. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    I used a nickel sometimes but the Webcor was pretty good about that. If the record had been left out in the yard for a day, that was a different story. On went the nickel.
     
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  23. majorlance

    majorlance Forum Resident

    Location:
    PATCO Speedline
    Given the Bob Newhart & Kingston Trio LPs in the rack, I'm guessing this Blue Chip Stamps catalog page is from around 1960 or so?
     
  24. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    1962, Christmas. Had that WEBCOR until May of 1966 when my dad brought this home for me. A BIG step up! Zenith_Stereophonic_turntable_with_speakers_large.jpg
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2017
  25. Diego Lucas

    Diego Lucas Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brazil
    Funny about these 1987/88 remasters, they released the first four UK albums in mono, ok, so the singles from these period (62-64) in Past Masters will come in mono too? Well, NO
    1988 Past Masters 1 have the first 3 tracks (LMD with Ringo in Drums and From Me To You single) in mono, but the rest in stereo, include singles like I Wanna Hold Your Hand, LTS EP, I Feel Fine, and other B-sides in stereo, i know that some mixes was from the 66 album Collection Of Beatles Oldies, but the rest, i don't know, why George Martin didn't try 87 stereo mixes with these tracks?
     
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