The Beatles "Help!" and "Rubber Soul" original 1965 stereo mixes?

Good theory. Could be!

 

True. But the concept of wanting to make one mix that would properly fold is sound. He just didn’t actually do it!

 

I generally prefer the 1986 mixes mainly because of the lack of wow and flutter. The few times I've listened to the 1965 mixes (any source) they sounded like a beat up cassette tape with all the wow and flutter and dropouts. It's extremely distracting to me but maybe a lot of people can't hear it.

Since I have a DAW and have the ability to remix or remaster stuff I decided to tackle the 1986 mixes. What I did was up-convert the 2 channel stereo mix into 3 channels: left, center and right. Then I recombined those channels with the left channel slightly panned a bit more center. The center channel which is mostly vocals I reduced that in volume 1 or 2 decibels depending on the song. The right channel stayed the same for the most part. The left and right channels I also dialed in a couple decibels of 10 kilohertz to make up for the fuzzy midrange on the 1986 mixes. The left channel I also thinned out the bloated bass that Martin jacked to make up for the weak bass of the originals. I also switched out "Help!" and "Ticket to Ride" with the far superior Ron Furmanek mixes.

The result is a far, far more listenable album.

The whole "Help!" album Paul's bass guitar is so poorly recorded or otherwise invisible no wonder on the next album "Rubber Soul" he switched to a solid body bass guitar and started overdubbing.

 

Where is the wow, flutter, and dropouts?

 

I'm hoping to hear advice on how I can make the stereo mix even wider.

LOVE the stereo "Rubber Soul"!

 

If you use the Audacity freeware audio editing program, there is a plug-in called Bass to Center which is probably one of the best (and easiest) remixing tools for an amateur audio engineer wanting to improve/change the shape of an old mix. For the '65 Rubber Soul mix I mixed to the center 60Hz, 63Hz, 66Hz et cetera through to 192Hz, 195Hz and 198Hz (so, every 3Hz from 60Hz to 198Hz inclusive). It's a bit time consuming, but very much worth the effort involved.
You get the voices, drums and bass in the middle of the stereo spread and enough separate sonic information on both the left and the right to make a really fine stereo mix to enjoy listening to.

 

Exactly what I said before a lot of people may not hear it.

The 1986 mixes are infinitely smoother sounding (being new mixes from the original 4-track) but it's also that long tail reverb.

 

Which is why I'm asking where the supposed problems are.

 

It's very tiny off speeds scattered throughout a lot of the songs. It's not anything that can be put into a list it's just what I perceive listening. My brain says this is wobbly and mangle-y sounding. I don't hear it on the other albums except maybe "Rubber Soul". Those two master tapes are not in best condition.

 

Ignoring a list, I wouldn't mind just a few examples.

Presumably just about anybody should be able to hear dropouts.

 

nothing wrong on this one

 

At roughly 01:06 in "You Won't See Me" there is a kind of rapid wobble going on as the word 'turn' is being sung. I've listened to half a dozen different permutations of the track (from vintage to more recent releases) and it is there. Must have happened as the track was originally being recorded (or being mixed down).

 

So it's not inherent to a US release in other words?

 

I listened to various needledrops, .mogg file mixes and digitally remastered CD sources and it is there on all of them (at the point where 'ur' is being sung in the line 'but I get turned away').

 

Can you show me one instance where one member of the mastering team has contradicted another. (i.e. Some quotes, a link, etc.) or else it's just hearsay. A scientific way of detecting NR on gaps and cross fades. I really like to know what that "scientific method" is.

I think we discovered that yes, there might be NR on the mono box set. But again it is on gaps and crossfades only. Less than 5%. And no one is disputing that. They worked on this project for 5 years and they know the material better than anyone else. They heard the masters. No one on here as. They treated the music with the up most respect.

I listened for this horrible use of NR that you speak of that is on Nowhere Man (1965 stereo mix.) I listened to it over and over again. I couldn't hear anything. Did you listen straight from the CD or ripped off of a PC. Sometimes this can cause noise and other artifacts. It's happened to me.
There is the actual noise level of the original quarter inch tape. It's not always a steady stream of white noise. Sometimes it will modulate. Especially with things like vocals.
Of course if you have a real top notch high end system - then it is possible that you are hearing something that most don't hear.

 

It doesn't matter if it exists or not, or weather anyone else can hear it, because the member in question can hear it and that's what matters. I don't see how wow and flutter could be an issue because all the Beatles (most) stuff up intil 1968 were recorded on 1 inch 4 track at 15ips. And the only bounced track is Help. And all The Beatles stereo mixes were mixed down to a quarter inch half track (2 track) at 15 ips. So why would they be wow and flutter on The Help 1965 mixes but not be any on the Hard Days Night or Beatles For Sale mixes. If there is was a wow and flutter issue on one Beatle album it would be on all of them.

I am sure his DAW with it's all it's processing power is very useful but you cannot remix a 4 track from the 2 channel master. Even if the mix is center, left and right. You can screw up the sound a lot but not remix. Sorry.

 

I am curious. Is this reel to reel tape recorded at 3 3/4 ips (not audiophile quality) or 7 1/2 ips (audiophile sound. The I am jealous speed)?

 

Oh no you didn't! Here they come. And they will come. All the 1986 remix bashers.

Take the original 1965 mix of The Word. You can't hear what Ring and Paul are doing. The kick and bass are all muddy (vintage tube sound) and are falling all over one another. Then listen to the 1986 mix. Clean. You cam clearly hear what Paul, Ringo and everone else is doing.

Steve prefers the original mixes and that's cool. Unfortunately there is a slight heard mentality on here. I remember when the remastered, "Out Of The Blue" came out in 2007. Most members here were saying how bad it sounded. Funny thing through, Steve Hoffman gave the whole remastered CD a listen and said that it was the best version .So many opinions changed on here. One member said, "Well if Steve likes it....I like it too."
LOL.

You know one member claimed that all the changes that we hear in the remix of Help are from eq. Makes no sense to me: George Martin remixes Help to sound exactly like the original. Every track the same volume but decides he wants more drums and bass. Does he turn the "rhythm track" up? No. He reaches for eq. What?! No one does that. Would you?

 

I know what you mean. Like the wow and flutter at the beginning of Bruce Springsteen's, Thunder Road. They say they have fixed it with the recent remasters. It's some new software or whatever that brings it closer to what was coming off the mixing board as opposed to what ended up on the tape. Not to go off on a tangent or thread jump. But I do believe these slight moments of speed variation exist. They seem to happen at the start of a song or near the start of a song or at the beginning of the tape. That's the only time I guess wow and flutter of this kind can occur with well maintained professional equipment.

 

The technique used on the Springsteen remasters is Plangent. It uses the latent supersonic bias signal recorded onto the tape as a reference tone, and adjusts the speed of the recording as necessary. The wow and flutter can occur anywhere in a song.

That said, it's still unclear where noticeable problems exist on the original mixes of Help! and Rubber Soul.

 

Any indictation that Beatles Disque America's are not flat transfers?

I'm looking for as close to flat as I can get out of the original stereo mixes.

 

Is Paul playing bass guitar? The bass guitar is very clear and prominent in the 1965 mix.

 

What track is that on Rubber Soul? Oh yea, that's on Side 3, right after their 12 minute 1965 progressive Rock Classic, "The Sad Tale of King Charles." Love that song. Great bass solo. The way Ringo plays this funk beat and Paul plays this 3 minute bass solo over it..... Totally cool!
Just being a jerk. Yes, I believe "We Can Work It Out" is a single from the same period. But I thought the vocals were on one side. He never remixed Day Tripper which needed it BADLY.

 

First of all if your CD player/DAC is better than mine I demand you stop using it at once. It's not fair (pouting like a child) because then you get to hear way too much detail and that ruins my whole argument. In all fairness..Come on!

Seriously though. Didn't say you couldn't hear the bass. But that on the original stereo mix the kick and bass blur into one another and you can't make out what is going on. But yes, bass is loud and kick is loud but it's hard to make out musically what they are doing.

 

Setting the gain levels high enough? Or not too high? Any further elaboration regarding the converters and gain levels would be appreciated. Also, why were third and fourth generation digital transfers made previously? Bad planning?