The Beatles "Help!" and "Rubber Soul" original 1965 stereo mixes?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by AlanDistro, Aug 12, 2012.

  1. RazorBoy143

    RazorBoy143 Member

    Location:
    Parts Unknown, USA
    ...which ended up being jacked up in volume, and had obvious tape damage. Crap like this makes me glad I have those two rare Canadian Disque Americ editions of "Help!" and "Rubber Soul" with the original 1965 stereo mixes. They sound more dynamic than those 1987/2009 verions.
     
  2. Hamhead

    Hamhead Sinatra promo specialist

    Wow!
    Just like the 1987 LP issue, the only difference is:
    one's pressed by specialty on standard grade vinyl
    one's pressed by Rainbo on 180 gram vinyl

    Both are different cuttings, but use the same 1987 digital source.

    I have the 1987 LP issue, it's horrible. No bass to speak of.
     
  3. rockledge

    rockledge Forum Resident

    Location:
    right here

    Is it possible the difference could have been in which compressors they used?
     
  4. long gone john

    long gone john Active Member

    Location:
    Whitley Bay, UK
    Can't say I've noticed any tape damage. Makes me glad I don't have hyper-sensitive hearing as they sound great to me!
     
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  5. Adam9

    Adam9 Formerly jbohdan

    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    I have heard both of the Disque Americ CDs. I only compared Rubber Soul with the 2009 original stereo mix CD and I definitely preferred the 2009. The Disque Americ sounded too trebly to me. In fact, my 2-box vinyl sounds better than the Disque Americ.
    Both of the 2009 Help! and Rubber Soul sound excellent to me. The Help! CD compares well with my 2-box vinyl (and better than my tube-cut which sounds dull to me.
     
  6. swedgin

    swedgin Forum Resident

    What?? The volume of the 65 stereo mixes on the mono box are exactly the same as the mono versions. I don't here any noticeable tape damage either. No idea what your listening to.
     
  7. fogalu

    fogalu Forum Resident

    Location:
    Killarney, Ireland
    I can't remember if I asked this question already - so apol0gies if I did. This applies to the 1965 stereo mix of "Rubber Soul".
    Does anyone else (besides me) find the opening of "Norwegian Wood" clipped - as if a fraction of a second has been lopped off the beginning? I don't hear this on the 1987 remix.
     
  8. Same here.
     
  9. RazorBoy143

    RazorBoy143 Member

    Location:
    Parts Unknown, USA
    It doesn't take "hyper-sensitive hearing" to notice that both 2009 editions have been made louder. But I guess since coming to this forum, I have learned to pick up on things that I didn't notice before. Here's what Replaygain shows:

    Help! (Disque Americ CD) -3.39 db
    Help! (2009 "Original Mix" CD) -4.30 db

    Rubber Soul (Disque Americ CD) -2.60 db
    Rubber Soul (2009 "Original Mix" CD) -4.36 db

    To me, it's not an accident that both 2009 reissue editions, pretty much, have the same volume increase. Let's face it. They could've gave a **** about the original Help! and Rubber Soul. Like it's an accident they got dumped into the mono box as "bonus material?" Clearly, the powers-that-be favored the 1987 remix versions (They've made that perfectly clear). Anyway, to me, when listening to both versions at the same volume, I can clearly tell that the Disque Americ versions were that much more dynamic that those 2009 reissues.

    In any case, the pops I heard in the 2009 "Yesterday" clearly isn't heard in the Disque Americ version. I hope somebody is taking good care of those tapes.
     
  10. swedgin

    swedgin Forum Resident

    Utter nonsense. The 65 Stereo mixes are the same volume as the rest of the universally praised mono box.
    Allan Rouse explained the reason on this very forum for the continued use of the 87 remixes and it was his idea to include the 65 Stereo mixes on the mono box as a bonus. As it was George Martins decision to remix Help and Rubber Soul he didn't feel they had any right to change that.
     
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  11. swedgin

    swedgin Forum Resident

    Just because the 2009 remaster is louder doesn't mean it has less dynamics or that dynamic range compression/limiting was used. (It wasn't, we know that). Have you level matched both and checked the dynamics?
    There is EQ on the 2009 remaster, are the DA versions flat transfers? If so that will also have an effect on the dynamic range.
     
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  12. RazorBoy143

    RazorBoy143 Member

    Location:
    Parts Unknown, USA
    That's hilarious. Especially since Martin's son has stated that, towards the end of his life, his father couldn't even remember remixing those two albums back in the late 1980s. :laugh:

    I've read the post you reference, and it says that the mastering team didn't make the decision to gussie those 1987 remixes of Help! and Rubber Soul, but some corporate puke did...which makes perfect sense to me. Only a corporate puke, who doesn't know jack about music, or doesn't care, would make a stupid decision like that. The whole reason they had to remaster everything again in 2009 was because the first ones in 1987 were so heavily despised. Yet this "genius" decides to make sure those two mixes, which ticked off everybody the most, are re-released again? The reverse polarity problem with Revolver pales in comparison to that, IMO.

    Yeah, I volume matched both versions of Help! and Rubber Soul (Disque Americ and 2009 "original mix" reissues vis the mono box) with Replaygain, then listened to both versions repeatedly. And, again, my ears got more dynamic range with DA versions. BTW, the DA versions sound exactly the original UK vinyl versions I have, so they have to be flat transfers.
     
  13. nikh33

    nikh33 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Liverpool, England
    I believe Sir George is still with us.
     
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  14. nikh33

    nikh33 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Liverpool, England
    What's new!
     
  15. ShallowMemory

    ShallowMemory Forum Resident

    Location:
    GB
    If one compares the 1965 stereo mixes in the Mono box to the remixes, one thing is plain: The 1965 mixes have a lower average level.
     
  16. RazorBoy143

    RazorBoy143 Member

    Location:
    Parts Unknown, USA
    Really? I thought he passed away awhile back. Apologies if I was incorrect about that.
     
  17. ShallowMemory

    ShallowMemory Forum Resident

    Location:
    GB
    Abbey Road were paid to master them by Apple so Apple had the final say and it is they who signed the remastered series including the two remixes off. Perhaps one might like to 'button hole' Apple board members?
    I just thank Allan Rouse and colleagues at Abbey Road for at least getting the '65 mixes out
     
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  18. slane

    slane Forum Resident

    Location:
    England
    So what if they're a bit louder? That doesn't always equate to compression or limiting being used, just a slight volume increase because there was enough headroom to do that. The 2009 versions have the dynamics intact. I don't recall any pops on 'Yesterday' either.
     
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  19. Onder

    Onder Forum Resident

    Well, I'm little bit confused with the "Replaygain" (whatever is that) numbers that OP gave us.
    Help! (Disque Americ CD) -3.39 db
    Help! (2009 "Original Mix" CD) -4.30 db


    Are these numbers the peaks? If that is so, it's the Disque Americ CD that is louder. Not that it says anything about a dynamic range, anyway. Just louder transfer, not less dynamic, as there is some more headroom left.

    Ondra
     
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  20. slane

    slane Forum Resident

    Location:
    England
    I think the numbers are how much the Replay Gain would amplify the volume to whatever the set target is. As the 2009's need a bigger drop in volume, they are presumably louder. But as you say, it doesn't say anything about DR anyway.
     
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  21. Evan L

    Evan L Beatologist

    Location:
    Vermont
    If you have the mono box, you don't need the Disque America discs.
    End of story.

    Evan
     
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  22. vinylman

    vinylman Forum Resident

    Location:
    Leeds, U.K.


    Louder does not mean loud. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the 1965 stereo mixes on CD. No tape damage; and EMI take exemplary care of their tapes. That's why they've NEVER had to use any of the safety copies. Probably a good idea to check before you post that someone's dead, too.
     
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  23. RazorBoy143

    RazorBoy143 Member

    Location:
    Parts Unknown, USA
    Sorry, dude, but I wouldn't trade my rare 1st press Canadian Disque Americ CD's for anything.

    They're not peaks. They show how much volume had to be decreased based on the default Replaygain setting of 89db. So if the 2009 has a bigger volume reduction number than the Disque Americ, the latter isn't louder. The former is.

    I got the death thing from a news report that I saw, back in the day, around the time the 2009 remasters were coming. Obviously, whoever dreamed up that report f**ked up, because it's not true. I had no idea it wasn't until a poster here told me otherwise.

    Sorry, I don't agree. If it ain't broke, it shouldn't have been fixed. There was nothing wrong with the "original" originals to begin with. Maybe I have better headphones, because, again, when I volume matched everything and listened to both versions back to back, the Disque Americ CDs sounded that much better to me. If you can, I'd listen to the Disque Americ version of "Yesterday" and compare it to the 2009 reissue version. You will hear pops that weren't on the former. They weren't on the original vinyl, either.
     
  24. vonwegen

    vonwegen Forum Resident

    In other words, the truth hoits!
     
  25. Sheik Yerbouti

    Sheik Yerbouti Forum Resident

    Location:
    Germany
    ... And this was one of the most blatant decisions in the whole history of The Beatles' recordings. In all four cases it would have been a cinch to cram the mono AND the stereo version on one CD.
     

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