The Beatles U.S. Albums box set - your impressions...

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Hawkman, Jan 24, 2014.

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  1. Frank

    Frank Senior Member

    You keep saying this. I don't always agree with Ron/brainwashed, but I've not gone wrong trusting his sources. I'm going to continue doing so and assume that EMI tapes were used except for "anything to do with The Beatles Story," the AHDN instrumentals and possibly the Help! instrumentals because I've seen no actual evidence otherwise.
     
  2. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    I keep saying it because John Barrett's notes indicate which tapes were not in the archive, and some reels even have specific "scrapped" notation. Lewisohn even mentions this regarding We Can Work It Out. In that case, the US stereo mix of The Word was on the same reel. Other mixes (like I Feel Fine and She's A Woman) have specific "CUT OUT FOR USA" notation.

    There's your evidence.
     
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  3. Frank

    Frank Senior Member

    Yes, it's unheard of for new information to come to light or new tapes to be found over 32 years. We should continue to rely on bootlegger Barrett's notes rather than current staff.
     
  4. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    What new information do you have to suggest that tapes have subsequently been found? Even ones that had been documented as being destroyed?

    Or to suggest that John Barrett was a bootlegger?
     
  5. ronbow

    ronbow Senior Member

    Location:
    St. Louis MO
    "Bootlegger" John Barrett and Mark Lewisohn remain our two best - and only - primary sources on the Beatles catalog in the Abbey Road / Elstree vaults. If there is a better source or new information, would love to see it.
     
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  6. Kim Olesen

    Kim Olesen Gently weeping guitarist.

    Location:
    Odense Denmark.
    Which is why it is the only one i'm getting since i already have the Capitol Albums sets.
     
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  7. ronbow

    ronbow Senior Member

    Location:
    St. Louis MO
    Ron appears to have great sources; we also know that not everything resides in the EMI tape vaults - so, the upshot is, we haven't gotten to the bottom of the story yet. It would be great to have an inside source discuss in detail.
     
  8. fogalu

    fogalu There is only one Beethoven

    Location:
    Killarney, Ireland
    I've just bought the Capitol soundtrack album of "Help!". It doesn't matter to me because I have the UK mono/stereo sets, but it must be annoying to a lot of people when they find they cannot play the "Help!" song without listening to that James Bond stuff first.
    Maybe this has been mentioned already, about two thousand pages back, but I am amazed that they didn't give the Bond opening and the song separate tracks on the CD, both in the mono and stereo sections. Was it because they wanted to retain the same track numbers as on the original vinyl?

    Anyway, the soundtrack to "A Hard Day's Night" is on its merry way to me, and these two discs are all I need from Capitol. I have created my own CDs of the other American albums and the different running order makes me listen to the songs in a new way.
     
  9. Frank

    Frank Senior Member

    It's a shame all those BBC tapes were destroyed, too. Now we'll never hear what the Beatles were like on the BBC. Same with McCartney's demo of A World Without Love. Lost to the ages, that.

    It's probably wrong to call Barrett a bootlegger. I believe the correct term for someone that pirates material for their own purposes is "pirate." My bad. Bootlegging is the common vernacular for the entire venture. "Assumed pirate" if it makes you feel better.

    From Bootleg: The Secret Rise of the Record Industry as found here:
    The Abbey Road vaults, though, remained shut until the early Eighties, and a process which would culminate in press reports of a release called Sessions, an album of Beatles outtakes originally scheduled for issue by EMI in 1984. Sessions was one result of a thorough review of Beatles material in the EMI vaults undertaken by terminally ill EMI studio engineer John Barrett in 1982. Another was a multi-media show held at Abbey Road Studios in the summer of 1983, entitled The Beatles at Abbey Road. Barrett, meanwhile, was running cassette dubs for his own use of some of the more interesting material he'd accessed. At the same time, dubs of some of the material were given to Capital Radio DJ Roger Scott, who was to do the narration for the show at Abbey Road. Barrett died in 1984, and shortly afterwards tapes of the more interesting material was being offered on the European continent, one Dutch Beatles collector/ bootlegger acquiring some eight hours of Beatles studio recordings in 1986 for the outlandish sum of $20,000.

    I'd link you to about a dozen descriptions of releases described as "The Barrett Tapes" and "The Barrett Bootlegs" but that's probably off limits.
     
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  10. MarkTheShark

    MarkTheShark Senior Member

    Is it possible that since the 1980s, Abbey Road could have acquired more tapes they didn't posess then?

    (Not trying to play the devil's advocate, just wondering out loud.)
     
  11. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Barrett was an EMI employee. It was his job both to assess what was contained in the archives and compile material for a show at Abbey Road, the latter in conjunction with Roger Scott. It was his *job* to review material. Unless there's a specific indication that he leaked material out to other people, calling him a pirate is absurd. By that logic, George Martin and the Beatles themselves would be considered pirates, since they also took home copies for their own use.

    More fingers seem to be pointed at Roger Scott, although I don't know how much of that is based on rumors/third hand information/etc.

    There are definitely at least a few things not documented in Barrett's notes, notably the tape with You'll Know What To Do. But note that it wasn't that he listed the tape but just didn't assign an ELSTREE number to it, it wasn't listed at all. On the other hand, most of the material in question (see below) is documented, but with no ELSTREE number. It's certainly possible that some things were found since Barrett made his notes, but it's worth noting that 1) everything released on Anthology 1/Free As A Bird/iTunes Bootleg 1963/boots is shown as being in the archive in his notes (or to put it another way, nothing that is shown *not* to be in the archives has been released), and 2) it appears that it was not uncommon to scrap mix reels anyway. I'd say it's *very* unlikely that anything that indicates "scrapped" or "cut out for USA" has been found, and it's probably not much more likely that the rest has either.

    Here's an overview of the unique mixes used and their status in John Barrett's notes:

    You Can't Do That (mono)
    - I don't see a mono mix tape in Barrett's notes, so it's hard to say one way or the other.

    Long Tall Sally (mono)
    E52000 Δ Z
    10.3.1964
    Long Tall Sally (Δ only)
    (SCRAPPED 23.3.1966)

    - No ELSTREE number in Barrett's notes, and it specifically indicates scrapped.

    I Call Your Name (mono)
    And I Love Her (mono)

    E51925 Δ 2T
    (REMIX)
    3.3.1964
    I Call Your Name (RM1) (FROM TK7 ON E51904-4T) B
    And I Love Her (RM1) (FROM TK21 ON E51898-4T)

    - No ELSETREE number, so this reel is apparently not in the archive. However, the following reel still exists:

    E51827 2T
    4.3.1964
    I Call Your Name (1 TAKE)
    (FROM 4T TAKE 7) (CUT OUT FROM E51925-2T)


    So it's possible that this mono mix still exists at EMI. Although the 2T notation is definitely confusing.

    I'll Cry Instead (mono)
    - Unclear. Barrett only has one mono mix documented (on E52839), and that reel is apparently not in the archive. There were mono reels made for UA and Capitol (E52813 and E52814), but those are also apparently not in the archive, and both indicate "-ALL TITLES TAKEN BY G.M. 10.6.1964)".

    Any Time At All (mono)
    When I Get Home (mono)

    I'll Be Back (mono)
    E53175 Δ
    (remix)
    E53121 on job sheet
    22.6.1964
    Any Time At All (RM2) (GB) B
    (RM3) (USA) B
    When I Get Home (RM2) (GB) B
    (RM3) (USA) B
    I'll Be Back (RM2) (GB) B
    (RM3) (USA) B

    - No ELSTREE number for this mix reel. The fact that separate US and UK mixes were done makes it likely all of the mixes were cut out and either inserted into the AHDN LP master or sent to Capitol.

    She's A Woman (mono)
    I Feel Fine (mono)

    E54055 Δ
    (remix)
    21.10.1964
    I Feel Fine (RM1-RM2)
    I Feel Fine (RM3) (GB) B
    (RM4) (USA) B (CUT OUT FOR USA)
    She's A Woman (RM2) (USA) B (CUT OUT FOR USA)

    - No ELSTREE number for this reel, and the notes specifically indicate both were cut out for the US.

    Michelle (mono)
    E57728 Δ Z
    (remix)
    9.11.1965
    Michelle (RM1) B

    - No ELSTREE number for this reel, and since everything else was likely cut out anyway it's not out of the question that the reel was scrapped.

    The Word (stereo)
    E57727 Z
    (remix)
    11.11.1965
    The Word (FROM TK3) (RS1) B
    (SCRAPPED 9 AUG 1966)

    - No ELSTREE number, and specific scrapped notation.

    I'm Looking Through You (stereo)
    E58219 Z
    (remix)
    15.11.1965
    I'm Looking Throught You (RS1) B
    (FROM TK4 ON E57720-4T)

    - No ELSTREE number, and this would have been cut out to be placed in the master reel anyway, as it's the same mix as in the UK, just with false starts. I suppose it's possible the false starts were kept at the end of the Rubber Soul master reel, but this seems unlikely.

    I'm Only Sleeping (mono)
    Doctor Robert (mono)
    And Your Bird Can Sing (mono)

    E60016 Δ
    (remix)
    12.5.1966
    Doctor Robert (RM4) B
    I'm Only Sleeping (RM5) B
    And Your Bird Can Sing (RM9) B
    (CUT OUT FOR THE USA)

    - No ELSETREE number, and specific cut out notation.

    We Can Work It Out (stereo)
    E57727 Z
    (remix)
    10.11.1965
    We Can Work It Out (RS1) B
    (SCRAPPED 9 AUG 1966)

    - No ELSTREE number, and specific scrapped notation. Lewisohn also indicates this mix was thrown out, necessitating a new mix for ACOBO.

    Day Tripper (stereo)
    E57542 Z
    (remix)
    26.10.1965
    Day Tripper (FROM TK3) (RS1)
    E57715-4T
    - Everything else on this reel was likely cut out for the LP master (Drive My Car, In My Life, If I Needed Someone, This Bird Has Flown, and Nowhere Man), but it appears this reel *does* exist, as there's an ELSTREE number listed (2646).

    For those keeping score:

    Mixes that likely still exist at EMI:
    - Day Tripper (stereo).

    Mixes that likely do not exist at EMI:
    - Long Tall Sally (mono), Any Time At All (mono), When I Get Home (mono), And I Love Her (mono), I'll Be Back (mono), I Feel Fine (mono), She's A Woman (mono), Michelle (mono), The Word (stereo), I'm Looking Through You (stereo with false starts), I'm Only Sleeping (mono), Doctor Robert (mono), And Your Bird Can Sing (mono), We Can Work It Out (stereo).

    Unknown status at EMI:
    - You Can't Do That (mono), I Call Your Name (mono), I'll Cry Instead (mono).

    All obviously still exist at Capitol in one form or another.
     
  12. Thesmellofvinyl

    Thesmellofvinyl Senior Member

    Location:
    Cohoes, NY USA
    That didn't take long. Maybe it's a promo. FYE.
    008.JPG
     
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  13. MarkTheShark

    MarkTheShark Senior Member

    Back in the 1980s I bought a Capitol purple label Rubber Soul. Just before "Michelle" begins, I heard what sounded like a single "tap" like someone tapping their foot or maybe part of some kind of non-verbal count-off. I'm thinking now (from memory) it could have just been vinyl noise (though I bought it brand new)? I don't think I still have it (though I'm not certain) or I'd pull it out and listen. Has anyone else ever heard anything like what I'm describing?
     
  14. btomarra

    btomarra Classic Rock Audiophile

    Location:
    Little Rock, AR
    Like the albums which included singles (Please Please Me, A Hard Days Night....). Just noting that not all UK Beatles albums were devoid of singles if the same buying public bought both and they wanted to avoid repetition. :)
     
  15. yerblues

    yerblues Forum Resident

    Location:
    CA
    Don't know if anyone has noticed/posted about it yet, but the individual cd discs are different than the ones in the box set.

    The discs in the box set have the original 60's Capitol catalog numbers printed on them matching the covers where the individual discs have a newly generated apple catalog numbers.
     
  16. motionoftheocean

    motionoftheocean Senior Member

    Location:
    Circus Maximus
    again, it feels like this contradicts the many claims that there are tracks from this box which utilize unique transfer. one would think that "new transfer" should preclude something released 5 years ago.
     
  17. Duophonic

    Duophonic Beatles

    Location:
    BEATLES LOVE SONGS
    Yea I noticed that one too.
     
  18. brainwashed

    brainwashed Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Boston, MA
    Fantastic listing Luk. I'll forward this information to my source at EMI and simply ask how this jives with what I was told earlier. I suppose it's possible that a simple communication error took place, but I tend to doubt it. So, have scrapped mix reels been found in the archives recently? Have copies of EVERYTHING (or nearly so) that was sent to Capitol exist at EMI, even if Barrett says otherwise? At this point who knows? One thing is clear SOMETHING is amiss. Why indicate that ALL tapes were sourced at EMI if they were not? Perhaps we'll never know the full details. But it is important to state (even repeatedly) that Barrett did his cataloging more than 30 years ago. If I get an update I'll report the details ASAP. Ron
     
  19. DrBeatle

    DrBeatle The Rock and Roll Chemist

    Location:
    Midwest via Boston
    1. I don't have the patience or time to go back and read the backstory, but it was always my understanding that Barrett made secret copies for himself while he was tasked with cataloging what was in the vaults? And that after he died, someone found them in his house and that's how they got to the bootleggers? Maybe he wasn't a pirate himself, but still pretty sneaky to make personal copies at work when you were simply supposed to be taking inventory. Am I wrong in my assessment of the situation?
     
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  20. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    It seems quite likely that Barrett made copies of things, but I'm not sure if it was "secret" or not. And note that he was not simply tasked with cataloging, but also with working on the Abbey Road show.

    It seems that Roger Scott was likely behind most of the leaked material:

    http://web.ncf.ca/fl512/beatles/articles/mythology_of_the_beatles.htm

    There's also this:

    It seems that the material that was booted in the '80s likely came via Roger Scott, while Barrett's tapes didn't filter out until later. I'm not sure where the information that Scott was removing the tapes from the studios came from. Perhaps @DinsdaleP can comment.
     
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  21. btomarra

    btomarra Classic Rock Audiophile

    Location:
    Little Rock, AR
    Your thoughts on this: when I bought my box despite the inner rice sleeves, my Help! disc was badly scuffed. Rather than replace the whole box and take a chance on other cds, I just replaced it with the disc in the Help! cd sold separately. Now the catalog numbers on the cds are not consistent.
     
  22. Chris Haley

    Chris Haley Music Lover Lurker

    Location:
    VA Beach, VA
    Just keep the boxset CD in the box and the individual Help! somewhere safe. I use minilp boxes from soundsourcecds for extra protection.

    http://store.soundsourcecds.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=66_71&products_id=205
     
  23. DinsdaleP

    DinsdaleP Senior Member

    Location:
    NY, USA
    That's basically correct: the batch of material which first appeared on the LP Nothing Is Real and the CD series Ultra Rare Trax and Unsurpassed Masters (among other Yellow Dog titles) was from Roger Scott's copies, which he traded/shared with friends in the 80's before he passed away. Someone (not necessarily Roger himself) sold several hours of tapes to the Yellow Dog folks, who sat on them until a few of the songs appeared on the Swingin' Pig label (URT), when they decided to start issuing the material (UM).

    Then there were John Barrett's reference cassettes, a set of tapes which only surfaced on bootlegs around 1998. A couple of tracks from these had appeared on Vigotone CDs in poor quality, but there's no telling how long they'd been in low-level circulation before being booted.

    Even before I researched this, it was obvious to me that Scott (or someone who worked on his SPLHCB radio special - but I understand it was pretty much a one-man production) was the source of the first batch of tapes, based on the titles common to the series and the YD boots. The story of how he smuggled out and/or copied tapes during work on the Beatles At Abbey Road presentation comes from someone I trust, and who knew many of the people involved. I've also had it confirmed from another source or two that Scott shared the tapes with friends. It could well be one of these collectors who sold the tapes, but Roger (not John Barrett) was the conduit for the first leak. I'm not sure whether Roger was also the source of the Barrett reference cassettes - he didn't use anything from them in his special, so I tend to doubt it.
     
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  24. spice9

    spice9 Senior Member

    Location:
    New York, NY
    Here's a question...

    What do you think of the mono versions of the songs here compared to the mono box, regardless of the album/song sequencing? I never got the mono box. Are these versions as good quality-wise? I know the later albums (Sgt. Pepper onward) are missing. Thanks for any opinions...
     
  25. btomarra

    btomarra Classic Rock Audiophile

    Location:
    Little Rock, AR
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