The Definitive Stereo Singles Part 1 (1956--1962)

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Bob Lovely, Jun 23, 2002.

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  1. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    But yet people who were involved on the technical side still remember tons of little details. Why would that slip their minds? It's not simply a matter of "documentation".

    A friend of mine, who's worked with Motown tapes, said to me "And yes, they went from 3 track right to 8 track." Now, obviously he was missing something, but nevertheless, the use of 4-track seems to be all but unknown at Motown. Why is that?
     
  2. Bob Lovely

    Bob Lovely Super Gort In Memoriam Thread Starter

    Luke,

    A lot of possibilities....maybe your friend's account of history at Motown is off, maybe when they went from three track to four track they were used to three track and continuing to record in three track not untilizing the fourth track, maybe the fourth track was used strictly for effects like reverb.

    Do you have any theories?

    Bob
     
  3. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Like I said 50 posts earlier. That stuff was done on four-track.

    Look at the picture that Luke furnished. FOUR vu meters on that wacky looking tape machine.

    The fourth track was USUALLY used for percussion overdubs, clapping tambourine, etc.
     
  4. Bob Lovely

    Bob Lovely Super Gort In Memoriam Thread Starter

    Steve,

    I have been in the four track camp throughout this thread but, kept an open mind. So, the fourth track, was, in a way, used for effects. I read in recent liner notes that "winter tire chains" were used as a percussion instrument on Dancing in the Street.

    Bob
     
  5. Ken_McAlinden

    Ken_McAlinden MichiGort Staff

    Location:
    Livonia, MI
    I'm staying out of the three-track versus four track versus eight track debate, but this discussion has finally convinced me that I need to go visit Hitsville USA which is only about 20 minutes from my home and 10 from my office. I have driven by about a gazillion times (it's across the street from Henry Ford Hospital and down the street from the old GM World Headquarters where I used to have lots of meetings). For some reason, I never think to do the obvious touristy stuff in my home town.

    Regards,
     
  6. Bob Lovely

    Bob Lovely Super Gort In Memoriam Thread Starter

    Ken,

    You should go and then post a thread on your visit--that would be interesting. Your insights are always excellent, by the way! I will be posting my Definitive Stereo Singles Part 2 (1963--1969) this weekend. The fur may be flying around here!

    Bob :)
     
  7. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    The human memory is an interesting and fallible thing!:)
     
  8. Bob Olhsson

    Bob Olhsson Motown Legend

    Location:
    Nashville, TN
    Amazing what you find when you're looking for information about Bill Porter! I was an engineer at Hitsville between 1965 and 1972.

    Four track is not mentioned simply because we never had a four track machine. When we occasionally got in a four track tape, we had to play it on a 1" 8-track machine using a couple hair pins as tape guides. "Where Did Our Love Go?" was one of the first 8-track recordings. A number of songs began life three-track and then got transferred to eight track so they would probably appear to be 4-track recordings.

    Before the 8-track machines (and my time,) they used sel-sync 3-track and typically went three and four generations between two 3-track machines. The 8-tracks were mixed down 8 to 8 at least once.

    That Xerox was probably referring to a fourth generation 3-track reduction that Berry Gordy wanted to hear in his office. He refused to listen to anything other than an acetate or vinyl. Had it been a final mix, it would have been referred to as a "master." Stereo was really not part of the picture at all until we went 16 track around 1969.

    Certainly as a lifelong audiophile, our records are often pretty embarrassing. On the other hand considering the number of generations that were employed, the mono singles are remarkably good. Still it would have been a lot more fun to record live.
     
  9. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Welcome Bob.

    Post often, and long!
     
  10. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    Hi Bob,

    Soooo, "Where Did Our Love Go" IS an 8-track recording!

    Bob, two questions, can you tell us anything about how "My Girl"was recorded and mixed, and, where were most of those stereo mixes done ?
     
  11. Bob Lovely

    Bob Lovely Super Gort In Memoriam Thread Starter


    Bob,

    Thanks for the valuable historical information and a BIG welcome to the Forum!

    Bob
     
  12. Bob Olhsson

    Bob Olhsson Motown Legend

    Location:
    Nashville, TN
    I don't remember ever handling the "My Girl" multitrack tape personally.

    Our first 8-track (quickly followed by a second for transfers) was installed in the fall of 1964 so "My Girl" was probably 8-track.

    When I began in the summer of 1965, all of Motown's production was coming out of one studio that ran 24 hours a day. Stereo mixes were made by Berry Gordy's brother George between 2 and 8 AM. He played an acetate of the final mono master and tried to match the musical balance and sound. (At Motown you were expected to complete an 8-track mix in 20 minutes or less.) These quick stereo mixes were then assembled into albums and sent off to RCA in Chicago for mastering into an album.

    Mono mixes, on the other hand, were immediately cut to mono acetates and subjected to numerous critiques and revisions by our quality control department. It was not uncommon for a new mix to be released just because we didn't like what the old one sounded like on the radio. In the vast majority of cases before 1969 there is no stereo mix that is comparable to the mono although several generations of later stereo mixes were done as the management realized how much the earlier ones left to be desired.
     
  13. Bob Lovely

    Bob Lovely Super Gort In Memoriam Thread Starter

    Bob,

    You are confirming what most of us have long suspected. It is rather obvious that a lot more sweat equity was put into those Mono mixes during that period.

    Bob
     
  14. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    Thank you, Bob! My suspicions are correct, that "My Girl" was most likely an 8-track recording!:)

    Not to keep asking about this stuff, but you are a valuble source of information here! How true is what i've read about stereo mixes being done in the basement of the house two doors down from the main studio?
     
  15. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    20 minutes for stereo mixes is woefully inadequate! But in those days it probably seemed a bit more reasonable, considering the whole recording process moved faster back then, anyway.

    We can safely say that MONO mixes are still closer to what Motown wanted their music to sound like regardless if it was played on the radio or not. But, radio WAS their target.
     
  16. Bob Lovely

    Bob Lovely Super Gort In Memoriam Thread Starter

    Grant,

    A strong "second" to your post!

    Bob :)
     
  17. Bob Olhsson

    Bob Olhsson Motown Legend

    Location:
    Nashville, TN
    Mono was everybody's target until the stores refused to stock mono records. Bill Porter was utterly unique in emphasizing stereo pop records prior to the late 1960s.
     
  18. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    That would be around, 1971? Perhaps stores wouldn't stock them anymore because the consumer no longer wanted them? Of course, this had to make the artists happy!

    Sorry, I can't comment on Elvis or anything about Bill Porter before the early 60s. I wasn't born then, and only became familiar with Elvis Presley recordings a few years ago.:(
     
  19. Bob Lovely

    Bob Lovely Super Gort In Memoriam Thread Starter

    Bob,

    I am a big fan of Bill Porter engineered recordings. He really knew how to make a great sounding record in Stereo. Steve has talked a lot about Bill, his methods and the equipment he used in the Forum.

    Bob
     
  20. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Question for you Bob...

    If My Girl was indeed an 8-track recording (the jury is still out, it seems), why would there only be two instrumental tracks? There are at least 2 stereo mixes, and it's pretty clear there are only two music tracks. On one mix they are hard left and right, with the right side moving over to the center for the midsection, while on the other mix one is left-center and the other is hard right.

    Is it possible the song was bounced down to 3-track before mixing? Or was it just a 3-track recording from the get go? Or, if it was an 8-track recording, why would there only be two music tracks?
     
  21. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    I posted over to the "Soulful Detroit Forum" (http://www.soulfuldetroit.com/forum/) about this stuff. Here's what they had to say:

    And:

    So, it looks like My Girl was 3-track after all.

    For anyone interested in the technical info, check out the "Mike McLean" threads. He was in charge of engineering at Motown and posts there.
     
  22. chip-hp

    chip-hp Cool Cat

    Location:
    Dallas, TX
    Luke,
    Does that mean that the Edwin Starr's Ric-Tic sides, specifically "Agent Double-O-Soul", that appear on Motown CDs are the original recordings and not Motown late '60s or early '70s rerecordings. Do you know if a stereo version of the original ADOS exists?
     
  23. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    I'm not the person to ask! Check out that forum!
     
  24. Bob Olhsson

    Bob Olhsson Motown Legend

    Location:
    Nashville, TN
    It was the record stores who made mono go away, not customer demand. The same thing was true of vinyl. The way record stores make the most money is having the widest possible selection of titles. This is why the hybrid SACD is so important, dual inventory is always a deal-breaker to stores.

    We were totally singles-oriented until about the time of Marvin Gaye's "What's Going On" album. Other labels were much more album-oriented but our main product was the mono single.
     
  25. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    Thanks, Bob. Interesting thing about record stores, and makes sense. I guess the customer didn't care quite as much as some would have you believe.



    Bob, I know you didn't handle the tape, but could you help us put this to rest?
     
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