The downfall of Rhino?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by quentincollins, Aug 22, 2002.

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  1. John Oteri

    John Oteri New Member In Memoriam

    Location:
    Hollywood, CA

    I totally agree with your statement: I DON'T think much of his mastering technique and he IS the biggest hero in reissues! Without Bill Inglot, there would have been no Rhino Records, or at least the Rhino we've all come to know and love.

    All hail Bill!!
     
  2. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    As far as i'm concerned, without Bill, there would be NO real reissue business on the scale it's been on for the last decade and a half!
     
  3. Matt

    Matt New Member

    Location:
    Illinois
    I remember reading similar praise for Rhino in Rocklists under some category like Greatest Record Labels of All-Time. After reading that, I flipped through an old, old edition of the Rolling Stone Record Guide at my library, and it was amazing how many albums or bodies of work reviewed were mentioned as out-of-print, no matter how great the artist. Most of Aretha Franklin's albums were apparently out-of-print at one time, and I'm talking about the Atlantic ones!

    So yeah, that's a tremendous achievement, buuuuuut that's still no excuse for questionable mastering!:D
     
  4. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Re: Re: Re: Re: The downfall of Rhino

    Oh yeahhhhhhh? Them's fightin' words, pardner!

    :)
     
  5. Gardo

    Gardo Audio Epistemologist

    Location:
    Virginia
    Would you accept a friendly amendment to support much of what Bill Inglot has done, and what Rhino did while it was still really Rhino? I'd vote for that one.:agree:

    As others have noted, Bill Inglot doesn't do all the work under the Rhino imprint anymore. The new Chicago remasters that I've burst several blood vessels over, for example, don't involve him at all as far as I can tell. Because Rhino is now simply a Warner's imprint, we'll see more and more of this kind of thing. I'm sure Bill Inglot isn't happy about this state of affairs.

    From now on, I'll be looking at every Rhino release to see if it's been mastered by Bill. If not, I'll pass unless I hear convincing testimony that all is well with the remaster. If Bill's name is on it, I'll trust it, even though I may disagree with some of his eq choices. Like many of you, I feel I owe him a lot.

    Gardo
     
  6. indy mike

    indy mike Forum Pest

    Could you maybe share why Bill I. chooses the treble happy route when mastering? Has he talked to you about why he likes things bright sounding? On the other part of the post I've quoted, Bill has done a boatload of tape research - Steve kindly shared with me that Bill I. got the Bobby Fuller Mustang/DelFi tapes out of limbo througn his own pocket - for that I'm mighty greatful!
     
  7. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    It warms my heart to see all this praise of Bill Inglot for a change!:)
     
  8. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    It looks like I may be the lone voice of dissent here...

    Bill Inglot the *researcher* is great - many tapes have been found thanks to him. We applaud him for that.

    However, Bill Inglot the mastering engineer (or "mastering producer" if you will, as I don't think he actually "plays with the controls") isn't that great. Some things have been good, but others haven't been.

    I mean, like it or not, all of that great tape research doesn't change the fact that his mastering style/choices have been questionable.

    It's a bit like George Martin. His '60s productions were great. However, that doesn't change the fact that he's a terrible revisionist - witness the stuff he did on Rock And Roll Music and the Help and Rubber Soul CDs.

    Just as you can't say "This person sucks because of [insert bad work here]", you can't say "This person is so great because of [insert good work here]". You have to look at everything, not just one facet of it...
     
  9. indy mike

    indy mike Forum Pest

    Whoa dad - if you find it in your heart you can dissect what folks do - all that research has paid off for folks like Steve, who gain access to better tape sources for us to enjoy - that's saved Steve and the other mastering folks a lot of time and money. Believe me, I really wish the Nuggets box had been mastered much differently, but it was not gonna happen on any label but Rhino, and dollars to donuts it wouldn't have been made at all if Mr. I weren't at Rhino. Do I like the sound he likes? - Hell no, but like our fearless leader sez he's an oldies lover's pal...
     
  10. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    I'll say it again - he may have done a lot of great stuff, but that doesn't change the fact that I (and many other people, for that matter) aren't happy with his mastering style. You can't ignore the bad stuff just because there's good stuff as well.
     
  11. indy mike

    indy mike Forum Pest

    I DON'T like his mastering style (see my Nuggets posts here, or dig out old BSN's where I occasionally bitch about the Rhinophonic sound), and I really don't dig mono for mono's sake - so far we're copacetic; however, a whole lot of stereo and multitracks have been excavated because of Mr. Inglot's work. I really wish he'd master with a less spiked high end and peaky mid zone, but he's not gonna change now. It's like that "love the sinner, hate the sin" philosophy - we have to take the good with the bad - we've gotten unenjoyable sound and toooo much mono for mono's sake (I'm guessing Grant might disagree here ;) ) but we've also gotten a mountain of stereo because of his digging and access to multitracks. I'm gonna stop here, so somebody else pick up this hot potato! :)
     
  12. Joseph

    Joseph Senior Member

    I have heard some great mastering work by Mr. Inglot and also some not-so-great. Let's face it there's only one Mr. Hoffman. But on the whole I think we are better off with having Bill Inglot around than if he had decided to be a dentist!(and I am NOT an anti-dentite!).
     
  13. indy mike

    indy mike Forum Pest

    Woof, no dentist references please - one of my phobias is the dentist's chair! :o Bill I. somehow nails the Sonics when he uses their stuff (He's Waitin' is killer on the Northwest Nuggets vinyl), and Just Like Me always has that throbby bass when Mr. I uses it - much as I love stereo, that's one mono mix I'll always prefer unless Steve gets his mitts on it.
     
  14. Richard Feirstein

    Richard Feirstein New Member

    Location:
    Albany, NY
    Is it likely that his hearing tells him to boost the treble? I think you know where I am headed with this question.
     
  15. reidc

    reidc Senior Member

    Location:
    Fitchburg, Mass
    Hey Guyss!
    Can I just say a few words from the guy on the corner view?

    Bought my first CD player back in 1985(right after my twins were born), and been buying ever since. Still have all my old audiophile vinyl.

    Back then- my disposable income situation was a lot tougher than what it is now, but back in the 80's I ALWAYS looked forward to seeing new RHINO releases in the store. I think Nuggets was my first- then I got the other Nuggets- style comp- I can't remember which title, but then I got Frankie Valli 3 CD, the Turtles, and many other greatest hits comps- many of which were 50's and 60's oriented.

    Steve is absolutely correct! Bill I. gave us all of this when no other label would even take a risk in this stuff selling! I thought the sound was the greatest thing. Many things were actually in Stereo! I think that back then when CD's were in their infancy, we were all happy just to see a CD release, and then read CD-Review each month(or Goldmine, or ICE).

    Fast-Forward to recent times. I hadn't bought a Rhino release in years.
    I bought the America Box set- unbalanced- no Bottom end! I bought Little Feat- Waiting For Colombus- again ZERO BOTTOM END! I bought 1 and only one Chicago(II).

    Something has changed in the last 5-10 years. Has Bill I. adopted a hotter style? Have my/our ears changed? Have my/our expectations changed? After all- the "bar gets raised a notch with each try".


    Chris
     
  16. Evan L

    Evan L Beatologist

    Location:
    Vermont
    I have enormous respect for Bill Inglot's work. Aside from Steve, I think he is the best remastering engineer around. IMO, his work for Rhino is exemplary. Plus, he deserves our respect for finding all of those lost masters. Unlike Steve, I don't mind the extra treble in his reissues. It adds a little more bite for these recordings in the digital domain.

    Bill, you ARE DA MAN! :cheers:
     
  17. Beagle

    Beagle Senior Member

    Location:
    Ottawa
    Re: Re: Re: Re: The downfall of Rhino

    Such as?
     
  18. audiodrome

    audiodrome Senior Member

    Location:
    North Of Boston
     
  19. audiodrome

    audiodrome Senior Member

    Location:
    North Of Boston
    I agree. I think everyone is being too harsh on Bill. There's nothing wrong with a little treble boosting. If you're comparing to the original vinyl, that frequency range isn't even there most of the time. Everyone has different tastes for listening. I happen to have a very nice system where I don't have to boost or cut anything. I think most of his stuff is very good although some of it tends to be a little "bass shy." I love my Rhino CDs. Many of them are the definitive versions.
     
  20. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Hrmm.

    When some nameless engineer boosts the treble it's the worst thing in the world.

    When Bill Inglot does it it's not that bad since he's a "good guy".

    What's wrong with this picture?
     
  21. John B

    John B Once Blue Gort,<br>now just blue.

    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    Right.

    I think the general consensus on Bill Inglot when you "look at everything, not just one facet of it..." is that his contribution in tracking down old music is wonderful. Most people here don't like some of his mastering decisions. Overall he has done us a great service for the former and is worthy of our respect.
     
  22. audiodrome

    audiodrome Senior Member

    Location:
    North Of Boston
    Luke you're still young. Hey we're all getting older. I've gone from "flat" on my preamp to one notch up on the treble in the last couple of years. All those years playing in clubs. Thanks Bill! Oh well...
     
  23. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The downfall of Rhino

    Remixing some things that he says he would never do now.
     
  24. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    I don't like the treble boosting, either, but the point is simply that Bill has done more for the reissue market than any other!
     
  25. Beagle

    Beagle Senior Member

    Location:
    Ottawa
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The downfall of Rhino

    I'd say that given Steve's taste and sense of restraint, it was for the good of the music at the time.

    Spiking the treble on everything you do is something else altogether...
     
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