The "Dylan And The Dead"/Bob Dylan & Grateful Dead Together & Alone Tour

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by stewedandkeefed, Mar 25, 2017.

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  1. stewedandkeefed

    stewedandkeefed Came Ashore In The Dead Of The Night Thread Starter

    I know. Who wants to start a thread about the Dylan And The Dead album? Well I do.
    For the first half of Bob Dylan's career, there was not much connection between Bob Dylan and the Grateful Dead save Jerry Garcia's guest appearance at the Fox-Warfield on 11/16/80. By 1986, Bob Dylan was ready to tour again and went out with Tom Petty & The Heartbreakers as his backing band. This included five shows in stadiums with the Grateful Dead. Bob was a guest with the Grateful Dead at two of the shows. These appearances were a bit shambolic but they lit a spark that was followed up on the following year when Bob Dylan appeared with the Grateful Dead for six shows - three on each American coast. Two years later the album Dylan And The Dead appeared. It contained seven performances from the tour.

    Side 1 - Slow Train, I Want You, Gotta Serve Somebody, Queen Jane Approximately
    Side 2 - Joey, All Along The Watchtower, Knockin' On Heaven's Door

    Generally considered Bob Dylan's poorest live album largely due to Dylan's own performance - "Slow Train" got the radio play and it revealed a Bob Dylan who did not know the words to his own songs.
    I accept that general criticism of the tour and album but, to me, the tour was a pivotal moment in Bob Dylan's career. The Dead got him to reach into his back catalog and perform many songs he had ignored. The tour also exposed Bob to the Dead's approach to playing live and their relationship with their audience.
    I attended the East Rutherford NJ show. From my experience, it was one of the most important Bob Dylan shows I ever attended. It was what turned me into an obsessive fan. The Dead, who were experiencing a popularity they had never previously enjoyed, were magnificent for their two sets. Yes the Dylan set began poorly but settled into a convincing concert experience- "Baby Blue" was the turning point in my mind. By "Chimes Of Freedom", I was hooked.
    When Dylan toured in the fall with Petty, they played many of the same songs. It was, in many ways, the same tour but with a different backing band. And those two tours set the table for Bob's approach to live performance from 1988 to the end of 2012 in my view.
    Is the album a good live album? No. And even if you did put together a different album from the tapes, Dylan's unconvincing performances would make a good live album impossible in my view. But I always look back to 7/12/87 with fondness and I wouldn't have attended as many shows as I did on the Never Ending Tour if Bob Dylan had not learned some valuable lessons about the live show from the Grateful Dead.

    The above reflects my view but I am interested in what others think. I am also interested in reading other accounts of Dylan/Dead shows forum members attended.
     
  2. Mbd77

    Mbd77 Collect ‘Em All!

    Location:
    London
    I disagree that the album couldn't be better with a different selection. There is another unreleased version of the album, compiled by Garcia, which is much better.
     
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  3. Mbd77

    Mbd77 Collect ‘Em All!

    Location:
    London
  4. stewedandkeefed

    stewedandkeefed Came Ashore In The Dead Of The Night Thread Starter

    I think you can make a better record, I just don't think it would ever be a "good" live album. The alternate album the Dead came up with was better in my view.
     
  5. Mbd77

    Mbd77 Collect ‘Em All!

    Location:
    London
    Oh ok fair point. Not the best tour in the world but I don't think it's the awful disaster that it's sometimes made out to be. I'm not a GD fan at all, btw.
     
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  6. Mbd77

    Mbd77 Collect ‘Em All!

    Location:
    London
    I think a 1987 release would be a great live album though..from the Temple In Flames tour with Tom Petty. Actually surprising that nothing from these shows has come out, officially or otherwise, as several shows were professionally recorded on multi tracks.
     
  7. ianuaditis

    ianuaditis Matthew 21:17

    Location:
    Long River Place
    I agree, the main problem with the Dylan/Dead sets is Dylan. There are a couple of songs at least in each of the sets Dylan just doesn't sing right.

    But it does seem to be a turning point for him, and it can't be coincidental that only a short time lapsed between playing with the GD and the start of his 'never ending tour.'
     
  8. LandHorses

    LandHorses I contain multitudes

    Location:
    New Joisey
    I was at the Foxborough, Philadelphia, and Giants Stadium shows, and loved all 3 Dylan/Dead sets. I agree that the album had poor selection, and could've been much better.
     
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  9. RayS

    RayS A Little Bit Older and a Little Bit Slower

    Location:
    Out of My Element
    Chiming in a little late but without a great deal more to add to what's been said.

    I attended Philly and East Rutherford. I was absolutely enthralled (my 2nd/3rd Dylan shows, my first two Dead shows), and between the two acts and the various associated iterations they accounted for more than 100 concerts I would see over the following 20 years.

    But yeah, the album is pretty dour, put together with a seeming disregard for whether or not Dylan was remembering the words to the songs (a simple prerequisite, one would think). Any of the 6 shows on their own in their complete, original context make for more enjoyable listens than either iteration of the live album, IMO. "Tangled Up in Blue" from JFK continues to knock my socks off to this very day, and the Jerry pedal steel numbers (particularly "Tomorrow is a Long Time" at Giants) were a treat, even for a Dead-newbie-Touch-Head-who's-ruining-it-for-the-REAL-fans such as myself at the time. On the released album, I find that The Dead really shine on "Slow Train" and "Watchtower" - it's Dylan who doesn't quite keep up his end of the bargain.

    I agree with all the OP said about this being a pivotal moment for Dylan. This mini-tour had a profound effect on "Temples in Flames", where Dylan really found himself again as a live performer (until misplacing himself again in 1991). The "Temples in Flames" shows are almost all "better" than the Dylan-Dead ones, but having a far greater interest in The Dead than Tom Petty (no offense Tom), and being that there are 6 Dylan-Dead shows and about 100 Dylan-Petty shows, these get my attention more.
     
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  10. GregM

    GregM The expanding man

    Location:
    Bay Area, CA
    I was at the Anaheim show. Meh. I had more fun and heard better performances when seeing The Dead by themselves. I don't know why they'd want to make an album from those shows, other than instant cash from hardcore fans.
     
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  11. Terry

    Terry Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee
    I saw both tours, the Dead and Tom Petty. Spectacular. The live album? Yikes. What happened?
     
  12. GregM

    GregM The expanding man

    Location:
    Bay Area, CA
    By the way, you may enjoy Dylan's comments about Joey and Jerry Garcia.

    Song Talk: “Joey” [from “Desire”]

    Dylan: To me, that’s a great song. Yeah. And it never loses its appeal.

    ST: And it has one of the greatest visual endings of any song.

    Dylan: That’s a tremendous song. And you’d only know that singing it night after night. You know who got me singing that song? [Jerry] Garcia. Yeah. He got me singing that song again. He said that’s one of the best songs ever written. Coming from him , it was hard to know which way to take that. [Laughs] He got me singing that song again with them [The Grateful Dead]. It was amazing how it would, right from the gat go, it had a life of its own, it just ran out of the gate and it just kept on getting better and better and better and better and it keeps on getting better. It’s in its infant stages, as a performance thing. Of course, it’s a long song. But, to me, not to blow my own horn, but to me the song is like a Homer ballad. Much more so than “A Hard Rain,” which is a long song, too. But, to me, “Joey” has a Homeric quality to it that you don’t hear everyday. Especially in popular music.
    Bob Dylan: The Song Talk Interview
     
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  13. stewedandkeefed

    stewedandkeefed Came Ashore In The Dead Of The Night Thread Starter

    I totally agree that the only way to consume this tour is to listen to each show in its entirety. I prefer the second through fourth shows. I envy you witnessing the rollicking "Tangled" that began the Philly show. In a quirk of setlist odds, I would not witness my first "Tangled" until Syracuse 1991 (first song and Bob was noticeably drunk), my 35th Bob show. The Dead did the best they could given what Bob was able to put forth for those shows and I resent Heylin's contention that the Dead were incapable of providing sympathetic support. Actually my favourite moment in NJ was during "Chimes" where there was a moment of tentativeness during an instrumental break and the Dead held back to listen for Bob's guitar and then reentered with a lovely surge of music which was as sympathetic as any backing Bob ever had.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2017
  14. RayS

    RayS A Little Bit Older and a Little Bit Slower

    Location:
    Out of My Element
    I've watched the JFK and Giants' videos numerous times over the years, and I always enjoy watching Garcia and Weir defer to Dylan, trying to guess his next move and intently watching his hands. The admiration they hold for Dylan is staggering (maybe more than Bob could handle well, in fact).

    I'm currently going through the entirety of The Dead's 1986 concert performances. With the summer stadium show collaborations with Dylan (I assume) already booked, The Dead introduce "Desolation Row" and "Visions of Johanna" to their repertoire during the same week in March. They come right after the addition of "Tom Thumb" and "The Mighty Quinn", the continuing presence of "Baby Blue", and an unfortunately fleeting run for "She Belongs To Me" in 1985. After the '87 shows with Dylan the floodgates open - "Watchtower", "Queen Jane", "Knockin', "Memphis Blues", "Masterpiece" (which actually was post-rehearsal but pre-shows), not even mentioning all the Dylan songs Garcia was covering in his own shows.

    11-1-92 I saw Dylan in Wilkes Barre, PA., and never was the influence moving in the opposite direction (Dead to Dylan, instead of Dylan to Dead) more apparent. The first electric set was made up entirely of songs that were tightly associated with The Dead, or covered by Garcia solo, with lots and lots of space left for the band to spread out (particularly during "Tangled"). And we're not even up to the point where "Friend of the Devil" and "Alabama Getaway" were common inclusions.

    1. West L.A. Fadeaway
    2. Pretty Peggy-O
    3. All Along The Watchtower
    4. Positively 4th Street
    5. Tangled Up In Blue
    6. She Belongs To Me
    7. Silvio

    The reverberations of the 6 show collaboration wound up looming much larger than the shows themselves.

     
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  15. stewedandkeefed

    stewedandkeefed Came Ashore In The Dead Of The Night Thread Starter

    Paul Williams wrote an essay about the Wilkes-Barre 1992 tape. A very enjoyable listen.
     
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  16. ianuaditis

    ianuaditis Matthew 21:17

    Location:
    Long River Place
    That is one of the best interviews I've ever read of anyone, I wish I'd thought of posting that here, it should be required for every Dylan fan. :tiphat:

    I think a lot of people would be surprised about how the influence ran both ways; it barely occurred to me, but you can see by what Dylan says about Garcia, and the way those setlists go, that the Dead and especially Garcia got to Dylan.

    I haven't read Heylin's book, to be fair, but every single quote I've read from it regarding the Grateful Dead is completely off base.

    I was trying to find some info on what Dylan and Weir have to say about each other (Because to me Weir is the Roger McGuinn of the 80s, ) and I found an article about Bill Walton that goes off the rails when the writer agrees with Heylin's opinion on the GD as Dylan backing band. (And the quote that seemed to be from Weir in the Google search synopsis was actually from Heylin.)
     
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  17. RayS

    RayS A Little Bit Older and a Little Bit Slower

    Location:
    Out of My Element
    Dylan, by his own admittance, was a bit adrift in the spring and summer of '87.

    Jerry, by all accounts (just listen to the tapes) was very adrift in the summer of '95.

    But here's a magical moment (IMO) - Bob & Jerry on stage together for the last time, ripping through "Lot to Laugh".

     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2017
  18. ianuaditis

    ianuaditis Matthew 21:17

    Location:
    Long River Place
    I read the first few lines of this interview from 1981, and I had to post it just for the interviewer's comments on Dylan:

    Jerry Garcia on Bob Dylan 1981

    David Gans: He didn’t do any of your old favorites?

    Jerry Garcia: One or two, but not many of them, and his versions are so different from my versions of his tunes –

    David Gans: That pissed me off about him.

    Jerry Garcia: What do you mean?

    David Gans: I walked out on his show one night. It seemed like he’d just randomly rearranged his tunes–

    Jerry Garcia: He’s got a perfect right to do that, don’t you think?

    David Gans: Yeah! But I’ve got a perfect right to get pissed and leave, don’t I?

    Jerry Garcia: Yeah, I suppose you do, if you’re gonna be that way about it.
     
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  19. RayS

    RayS A Little Bit Older and a Little Bit Slower

    Location:
    Out of My Element
    Wow - I wasn't aware of it. Any chance it's floating about online?

    Wilkes Barre was a contender for my '92 "concert of the year", edged out by the second Minneapolis show. Since my '88 (10-19-88 Radio City) and '89 (10-10-89 Beacon Theater) picks were both shows I attended, maybe I was trying to avoid "I was there" bias. A very memorable show, and the Dead vibe really resonated with me.
     
  20. stewedandkeefed

    stewedandkeefed Came Ashore In The Dead Of The Night Thread Starter

    Williams had a column in the magazine put out by Rolling Tomes (Grand Junction CO). I think the magazine was called Inside The Tracks. His column was called "You Gotta Here This Tape". One of them was for the Wilkes-Barre 1992 tape. I did the eight show Toronto to Thunder Bay run in August of 1992. Got to hear four "Idiot Wind"s and a slew of other interesting choices. Hamilton ON 8/21/92 was the standout. Still have the Minneapolis residency on cassette.
     
  21. soniclovenoize

    soniclovenoize Forum Resident

    Location:
    Minneapolis, MN
    A few years ago I was really obsessed with these shows. It seemed like such a good idea at face value, but Dylan's voice was a grumble and his melodies meandering, with The Dead really not a great choice for his backing band without a strong backbeat and counterpoint. I scoured the soundboards of all the shows and indeed a lot of it was just purely awful, especially if you thought the official album was representative of the whole. But if you listened carefully enough, there were quite a few select cuts that were pretty great and would make a decent release. In my opinion, here's the best of all the performances:

    • John Brown (Foxboro 7/4, from the Garcia mix)
    • Slow Train (Foxboro 7/4, from both Garcia's mix and the official album)
    • Joey (Foxboro 7/4, from both Garcia's mix and the official album)
    • Ballad of a Thin Man (Philly 7/10)
    • Stuck Inside of Mobile (Philly 7/10)
    • The Wicked Messenger (East Rutherford 7/12)
    • The Ballad of Frankie Lee & Judas Priest (Eugene 7/19, from the Garcia mix)
    • Heart of Mine (Eugene 7/19)
    • It's All Over Now Baby Blue (Eugene 7/19, from the Garcia mix)
    • Rainy Day Women (Eugene 7/19, from the Garcia Mix)
    • Queen Jane Approximately (Eugene 7/19 from both Garcia's mix and the official album)
    • I'll Be Your Baby Tonight (Oakland 7/24)
    • Shelter From The Storm (Oakland 7/24)
    • Knockin On Heaven's Door (Oakland 7/24)
    • Chimes of Freedom (Anaheim 7/26, from Garcia's mix)
    • All Along The Watchtower (Anaheim 7/26, from the official album)
    If that was a 2LP, it would be pretty darned good if you ask me.
     
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  22. Rfreeman

    Rfreeman Senior Member

    Location:
    Lawrenceville, NJ
    Saw the 3 east coast shows. Giants was best overall, but Tangled & Frankie Lee in Philly were my two favorite tunes. Released album bit but there was enough good stuff played that it could have been real nice. Also a great couple cds of rehearsal.

    Interesting that the GD came up with a bit of a new arrangement for Memphis Blues on this tour, with a real prominent repeating hook, and Dylan stuck with that arrangement most times I have seen him play it since.
     
  23. keef285

    keef285 Forum Resident

    Location:
    U.K.
    In this case the rehearsals were better than the shows, they are out there .....seek and ye shall find.
     
  24. arthurprecarious

    arthurprecarious Forum Resident

    Location:
    North East England
    We all know that this prriod is widely regarded as the nadir for both. It promised a lot more than it delivered. I agree that a full show released officially would be a far better bet. I think that the rehersals that were mostly pretty good.
     
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  25. quicksrt

    quicksrt Senior Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    At some point Sony are going to reach a point where these recordings are revisited. It might be soon or it could be 20 more years from now.
     
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