The Grateful Dead's "Wall of Sound".*

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by JayB, Apr 5, 2008.

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  1. ruben lopez

    ruben lopez Nunc Est Bibendum

    Location:
    Barcelona Spain
    I always wondered how Kidd recorded those wall of sound gigs if there wasn't a mixing console to make a 2-track stereo tape.
    And in some of the shows(Dillon for example)there is a lot of separation between instruments,as if it came from multitracks.
    Somebody enlighten me please.:)
     
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  2. gorangers

    gorangers Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Haven area
  3. davmar77

    davmar77 I'd rather be drummin'...

    Location:
    clifton park,ny
    that was the 2nd of 3 wall of sound shows I saw. the others being boston the month before and jersey city not long after.
     
  4. bmoregnr

    bmoregnr Forum Rezident

    Location:
    1060 W. Addison
    Kidd had the same MX-10 mixers used before and after the WOS. I think he had a good many more responsibilities to track down problems that went beyond taping-- for which there might have been far more than other PAs as they worked the kinks out of that Space Shuttle-level-of-complexity PA, so my best guess is when he had to go bird dog down some issue that meant he wasn't watching the mix say the way Betty would have full time. It is my guess Kidd potentially had to deal with another issue that Betty did not. Betty had a mic split feed with zero impact from the FOH mixers; if Kidd only got a mic feed after the band controlled the levels of their mics, he might have had to deal with that (Kidd has something set one way then a band member changes their mic level and that translates directly to the tape until Kidd compensates). On the one hand it would make more sense that Kidd got a mic split feed before the band had level control, but given that the level control was literally a knob on the mics themselves and they got mixed at the summing amps, it might have been easier to deal with mic split feeds after those inputs. I have to think recording wasn't a priority the way Betty made it her own thing; so Kidd was job number one the WOS, and so I question whether they put all that much effort into getting a mic split feed with zero level input to focus on a completely unique recording mix.

    As far as separation it is hard to say, other than to speculate that unlike say Betty using mic placement and bleed to get a better stereo image in the middle with most things panned hard left or right, perhaps the WOS didn't lend itself to that type of opportunity what with the phase cancelling mics and all; so it acted more like pure instrument line feeds into the mixers and that led to more instrument separation/differentiation on the tape. I totally agree the mixes don't always blend into one all that well and have a very multi-track feel, but then the Europe '74 shows seem to blend very well, and DiP 12 off of the top of my head does, so I think like anything Kidd got better as they all wrangled the beast better.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2017
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  5. ruben lopez

    ruben lopez Nunc Est Bibendum

    Location:
    Barcelona Spain
    So that means each instrument and voices had a direct feed to a recording console?
    Instead of putting mikes in front of amps and into several spots like kick drum,snare,cymbals and piano?
    As i understand they had no soundboard because they were doing their own mix from the stage...
    Do i get this right bmoregnr?
     
  6. davmar77

    davmar77 I'd rather be drummin'...

    Location:
    clifton park,ny
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  7. bmoregnr

    bmoregnr Forum Rezident

    Location:
    1060 W. Addison
    Yep, no console to mix the PA. They built specialized summing amps (search for John Curl in this thread) that mixed the vocals and the drums and the pianos, and sent each of those static mixes if you will to each of their separate crossovers>amps>speaker stacks. Each “instrument” speaker stack or cluster acted completely on its own, 11 separate systems, and the only mix was the summing amps, and then the gain knobs on the vocal mics or instruments for players to control their levels in the mix (drums possibly withstanding I suppose, I don’t know if Billy had any gain controls).

    There were still mics on the drum kit, and I think the piano had a special close mic setup (I’d have to go track that down); I am pretty sure you will see mics in front of the guitar amps (often a FOH mixer will take a feed of the guitar amp speaker and the line feed of the guitar and blend them to effect), so all of that the whole stage is mic’d pretty much the same as they always did including those individual feeds being split to go into a channel of the MX-10 mixers, they likely stacked 3 MX-10s so 12 channels likely [Edit, I think you lose a channel when you chain them so 4 MX-10 to get 12 channels according to Bear on the other thread]; what I was saying may well be missing for Kidd’s recording setup was, consider the May ’77 Betty Boards, I think the vocal mics pick up a lot of what is going on with guitar amps, drums etc. on the stage, and that lends itself to Betty blending things in her mix with a more spatial feel of the stage; the WOS phase cancelling vocal mics cut out everything on the stage except the vocals, so it has a dead air quality leaving you with more of an instruments + vocals alone and separate feed and less of the mic bleed glue that can fill spaces I suppose.

    We get into the MX-10 mixers, which are definitely worth learning about, on this thread linked below (the MX-10 were used for both recording and FOH early on, Bear loved them and used them for most all of his Sonic Journal recordings, including ‘78’s DiP25; they were used for recording only for the WOS as we discussed, and after the hiatus they started hiring Clair Bro’s, FM Productions etc. who were bringing their own FOH consoles; but Betty amongst others stuck with those MX-10 mixers for recording until my guess is ’78 when she switched to a solid state console per my speculation here as well. (I think a few photos got deleted so I will try again here The Grateful Dead Live Sound and Recording Legacy Thread

    Missing the ends of the knife switches but:
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2017
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  8. ianuaditis

    ianuaditis Matthew 21:17

    Location:
    Long River Place
    Someone on the forum was at that show rbbert maybe?

    I found this funny poster:
    [​IMG]

    "Please, no glass containers or drugs"
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2017
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  9. rbbert

    rbbert Forum Resident

    Location:
    Reno, NV, USA
    2 of the more commonly shown photos of the WOS are the Santa Barbara and Hollywood Bowl shows, the 2 '74 shows I managed to attend :):):)
     
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  10. davmar77

    davmar77 I'd rather be drummin'...

    Location:
    clifton park,ny
    from the same show.

    [​IMG]
     
  11. ruben lopez

    ruben lopez Nunc Est Bibendum

    Location:
    Barcelona Spain
    No WOS for bluegrass! :laugh:
     
  12. davmar77

    davmar77 I'd rather be drummin'...

    Location:
    clifton park,ny
    I seem to recall hearing that the dead provided the wall of sound for the golden state bluegrass festival in april of 74. Garcia took part in some of it. we need an eye witness on that to be sure.
     
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  13. bmoregnr

    bmoregnr Forum Rezident

    Location:
    1060 W. Addison
    Yes I don't know what the standing wave of a standup bass is but it looks like that PA in the picture in this article could surely handle it! The Stanford Daily 2 May 1974 — The Stanford Daily

    I'll have to check the liner notes again but I think Bear was there which led him to show up at Doc & Merle's shows the next week at the Boarding House to say hey I want to record you, all to great effect here: https://owsleystanleyfoundation.org/product/doc-merle-watson-never-way-live-boarding-house-may-1974/
     
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  14. bmoregnr

    bmoregnr Forum Rezident

    Location:
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    I made a mistake here in the bold section, Bear got a feed out of Betty's console, I think the Allen+Heath by then, for his half of the '78 DiP25 release, he did not use the MX-10 mixer then. The difference between the two shows on DiP25 according to Bear is he used less mics in his mix.
     
  15. gorangers

    gorangers Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Haven area
    Listened to a little of this last night. Sound quality was far better than what I heard on you tube.

    I know Scarlet Begonia's has issues in the only recordings I've heard. If I remember that day correctly, there was tons of crowd noise when the band hit the stage so I'm guessing that might be the reason for the no sound/poor sound issues on Scarlet.

    I listened to Scarlet, Me and my Uncle and China Cat last night. All awesome ... not perfect by any stretch, but still awesome!
     
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  16. ianuaditis

    ianuaditis Matthew 21:17

    Location:
    Long River Place
    A lot of times on the opening songs on Soundboards are like that. Even though they had soundchecks it seems like it takes them a song or sometimes two to get the sound dialed in.

    Those transfers by Charlie Miller on the internet Archive are supposed to be the best.
     
  17. gorangers

    gorangers Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Haven area
    Regarding separation between instruments, I couldn't agree more. You hit the nail on the head....:edthumbs:
     
  18. MisterBritt

    MisterBritt Senior Member

    Location:
    Santa Fe, NM, USA
    As regards "--several report of setups from back in the day --" you can see in this video at about the 1:45 mark that at this period at least when the pictures were snapped they had more than two or three MC-3500 tube amps! You can see Phil Lesh had at least four just for himself. Bob had his. Jerry had his, etc.



    Vintage Original McIntosh MC3500 SOLD AS A PAIR | eBay
     
  19. bmoregnr

    bmoregnr Forum Rezident

    Location:
    1060 W. Addison
    Neat video. I am not sure it it has been posted here but Richard Pechner has 3 pages of a lot of WOS photos and included in there is a longer piece with Bobby that they drew from it seems.

    Also not sure if it was posted here before but here is someone from McIntosh talking about the rig and they are saying 48 McIntosh MC2300s and two McIntosh MC350 mono tube amplifiers Hi Fi Insider: McIntosh labs and the Grateful Dead Wall of Sound, An Interview with Richard Pechner

    I'm not a McIntosh expert but I think what you see in the players rigs is the 2300 solid state amps per here:

    [​IMG]


    A pic of a MC, seemingly called MI sometimes 350 is tough to find, although you see a lot of MC3500 which might just be a renaming. But they are pretty different looking than the 2300. I have never found one in a WOS photo, but I suspect they would be behind the backline given they were driving tweeters for the vocal cluster and drums.

    [​IMG]
     
  20. MisterBritt

    MisterBritt Senior Member

    Location:
    Santa Fe, NM, USA
    Very cool. You're right, the amps are the 2300s, hence the two meters per amp rather than one. Thanks.
     
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  21. bmoregnr

    bmoregnr Forum Rezident

    Location:
    1060 W. Addison
    It is tough to keep track no doubt and even Bobby got it wrong!
     
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  22. bmoregnr

    bmoregnr Forum Rezident

    Location:
    1060 W. Addison
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  23. vintage_tube

    vintage_tube Enjoying Life & Music

    Location:
    East Coast
    I was turned down by McIntosh for permission to scan pages 235 thru 240 -- from the book McIntosh ...."for the love of music" copyright held by McIntosh Laboratory INC. I could quote passages, but not whole pages. So, let me give it a whirl.

    Anyways, on those pages it speaks of the Grateful Dead's Wall of Sound and has input from Bear, Phil Leash, Dave O'Brien (McIntosh) and John Curl (McCune Sound & later Alembic Studios - the latter founded by Bear which specialized in making musical instruments and sound equipment for the GD & other SF bands).

    The first WOS was 23 March 1974 at SF's Cow Palace. As the band moved from small venues to arenas they were aware of the strains that a hall's or stadium capacity put on conventional PA systems. They decided to build their own; one that would be loud and yet clear & undistorted.

    They realized scaffolding brought in for the larger shows presented their own problems -- need for larger amps and more speakers to project the sound further. Masterminded by Bear, the WOS creation positioned speakers behind them which allowed the musicians to hear the music as the crowd was hearing it. Additionally, the topology of the WOS eliminated the need for a mixing console/sound man. Each musician could control both the levels of his instrument and vocals. Each instrument had it's own speaker stack -- one each side of the stage. The lower half of each stack would be the players monitor and the upper projected to the crowd.

    Initially they wanted tube 600w monos (2 x 300w stereo), but tubes were being faded out & they selected the transistorized MC2300's. They liked it so much they bought everyone on the west coast. Even paid for one dealer to get on a plane with a Mc2300 (ticket purchased for it too) and flew to Northern California.

    The WOS consisted of 6 systems:
    1. Vocals -- single channel of 19 amps feeding 226 drivers (16 ea 15 inch woofers, 60 ea 12 inch, 120 ea 5-inch mids and 30 tweeters
    2. Lead guitar -single channel, one amp driving 20 ea 12 inch
    3. Rhythm guitar - single channel as like System 2
    4. Piano - single channel with 8 amps fed thru 128 ea drivers - 16 ea 15 inch woofers, 32 ea 12 inch, and 80 ea 5 inch mids
    5. Bass - four channels w/4 amps driing 36 ea 15 inch wooefrs
    6. Drums - 3 channels with 10 amps, 120 drivers; 16 ea 15 inch, 20 ea 12 inch, 60m ea 5 inch and 24 tweeters

    The WOS also included a special vocal fill mix of 2 amps and a mix of 64 drivers & instrumental mix with 3 amps feeding 27 assorted speakers.

    Final tally, 11 channels, 48 amps (28,800 watts of McIntosh power amps) and 641 drivers. Bear recalls testing heavy gauge wire -- they used 4awg but tested all the way to 0000 welding cable.

    The system projected such a coherent waveform that it didn't loose its integrity at 2500 feet.

    WOS was used for 37 shows over 7 months & retired when the GD took a two year break in Oct 1974.

    Best sirs,

    Bob
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2017
  24. bmoregnr

    bmoregnr Forum Rezident

    Location:
    1060 W. Addison
    Holy cow I never knew there was that book. I totally respect you checking with TPTB on the copyright and kudos to them for at least letting you pass along excerpts because they just made one guaranteed sale! I know some people who know the McIntosh leadership and there is nothing but praise about them. Anyway thanks again for your time and effort this is fantastic.
     
  25. gorangers

    gorangers Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Haven area
    vintage-tube, that was so cool and fun to read. I had forgotten that The WOS was used for such a short period of time. I was fortunate to see the band during this time.
     
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