The Laser Turntable

A laser would take so much fun out of the whole experience...

 

I disagree with you, I've worn out several records in the past, it's a natural end to playing vinyl with a diamond stylus, over and over...

 

....not if the thingie won't play any other way.

 

I got to hear one of these several years ago. And to my ear, it made LPs sound a bit too much like CDs. In some ways I suppose that this is good. In other ways, it means that LPs loose some of their sonic appeal, which makes me wonder: Why bother? Also, they exaggerate the effects of dust horribly. Dust that you will never heard with a normal stylus can make some loud pops through one of these units.

 

Exactly, and there is a lot of better sounding turntable combinations for the shipping to Japan to repair or align the darned thing alone.

 

I can't imagine the vinyl purists on this board even considering the concept of digital reading of analog-recorded information as anything but hooey ("...And to my ear, it made LPs sound a bit too much like CDs..." indeed); the hair would
stand up on their backs, and froth would rise in their mouths. The concept is sound, but the business model failed yet again to live up to the hope of the consumer. That's why this question keeps getting re-threaded every year or so here.

Now with the renewed fascination with playin' rekkids on Granpa's Garrard that's so hip with the kids these days, I don't think the technology will rise to the challenge of succeeding economically to sustain itself. But, there's a new slant on
digital recovery of bad grooves these days, wherein the record surface is digitally scanned - whether the record's in pieces, or no - and the track of the groove is read on computer software. Now, where this fails comparatively, I believe, is the
scanner won't be able to aim at the part of the groove that may have less wear on it (such as deeper into the groove than the stylus was tracking on the ol' Victorola, for instance). But that's a solvable issue, and with so much more research
being done on turning computers into Cylons than turning Close-n'-Plays into His Masters Voice, I predict this newer technology could reach a sustainable price point in time to make the Fineal method a buggy whip.

Still gonna have to do something about those turntable-fetishist hipsters though, if you want it to get taken seriously.





Now playing on http://www.arielstream.com/]Ariel Stream[/URL]: Scott Appel - (Nick Drake's) Hazy Jane

 

The ELP (ex Finial) laser LP player is all-analogue in the audio chain. There's no digitisation.

 

It would be useful for playback of records that can't be played with a stylus, for example. acetates that are beginning to delaminate, which a stylus would instantly destroy. But it can only play perfect records. A record that is very warped, for example, can be tracked with a conventional tone arm but not the laser. It does have a use, but it's very limited. It would probably sell if it sounded worlds better than a regular turntable, but I've heard it, it doesn't. And part of the audiophile "fun" is trying different cartridges to find exactly the "flavor" that appeals to you. It's a great concept. but the reality of it doesn't live up to the promise. And that's too bad.

 

I think the idea here is that one of the big Audio equipment companies should take a new modern look at the laser turntable.
With todays breathtaking technology, there should be no reason that one cannot be mass produced at a price point of say, $1,500.
If they could make it easy to use and correct the flaws of the Finial, I think they would sell a ton of them. Assuming they SOUNDED like a trad turntable, what audiophile wouldnt want one to halt the wear and tear on their records? I know I would.

 

I think the companies with the capital and engineering resources to do it feel as though market acceptance would be low. So they don't.

 

...yeah, and it may not be too long till the newer formats are no longer supported...much less annie-log devices that spin vinyl. The "Laserdisc" LP player gets farther behind the eight ball with every day that goes by, IMO. When The man who runs it gets old, will it just cease? Maybe...?

 

What would be the point for a company to spend all of the R&D $ to build something competitive to the ELP? Is it simply to prove how good they are at loosing money?

Yes, I've heard an ELP, and despite the fact that it is supposedly is 100% analog, it sounded more like listening to a good (but not extraordinary) CD player than it did to sounding like listening to a great phono setup. There's a reason why analog has survived all of these years, and it is not simply nastalgia. I'm sure that a lot of it has to do with the fundamental "tweakability" of LP playback. I'm aslo sure that some of the appeal of analog is the how LPs can at times "enhance" the sound. But its the sound of the format which keeps people coming back to LPs (and yes tape too).

I once was an anlog die-hard. But that all changed about 12 years ago when I heard my first really well recorded and well mastered SACD. I now love well-recorded (and mastered) hIgh-res PCM as well. But DSD simply sounds more like analog-like to me. High res digital formats of one kind or another are the way of the future, and frankly, they are capable of sounding better than did that ELP unit did to my ears.

LPs can sound truly spectacular on a really great TT, but if I just wanted to hear nothing better than good (but not extraordinary) CD-quality sound, then why not just play a CD rather than bothering with a laser turntable which sounds no better?

 

By now, the original patents must all have expired, or technology and processors should have improved to make them worthless.

The first Finial laser turntables were announced in the late '80s. So those patents and that technology are at least 25 years old...

It does seem that the time is as ripe as it will ever be for someone to develop a mass market version of the laser turntable (or the fiber optic turntable, or whatever no-contact type turntable you want to develop). But the problem is that although the vinyl resurgence is in full bloom, the numbers you could sell are still a small drop of spit in the bucket for someone like Panasonic or Sony or their like.

 

What would be interesting is some sort of mechanism added to the design of the ELP turntable that would push or blow the microscopic dust specks away from the groove-reading lasers before they read that portion of the groove. That would eliminate the pops and crackles from the laser reading the dust. Unfortunately, I think that ELP is incapable engineering-wise of really changing the design of the Finial. They've added all sorts of crap for filtering or noise-controlling to the original Finial design, but I don't think that they've really changed anything substantially in that design.

 

Or employ some sort of software filter that would recognize large changes (i.e. dust or groove damage/defects) and smooth the sound out in those places through interpolation. I'm not sure if you could do that in the analog realm though, you may have to go digital. It'd be great for doing needledrops of very rare things.

 

The two on ebay now are $9K and $16K.I think both have been up a while...

 

Currently saving for one; can't wait. As a tool for archiving and salvaging otherwise unplayable records, I'll probably find it indispensable.

 

Yes, because every young person who enjoys the sound of records is a "hipster."

 

That begs the question - How well do laser turntables read dirty records. Also, seems to me, by having a laser read a record, doesn't this negate the analog chain?
Is this a digital process? (Laser read information from the groves is an A/D conversion?) - I think I'll stick with my cheapo turntable and AT440 cart...

 

They don't. They read the dirt as noise. They require machine cleaned records, real time declicking to boot. And sound inferior to turntable and tonearm combinations available for less money than the shipping to Japan to repair or align one. The average good SHF member's turntable, tonearm, and cartridge is sonically superior. And this is under $1200 for that setup being discussed.

 

"The two on ebay now are $9K and $16K.I think both have been up a while...
"

I reply:
Those are from their "distributor" in the US.

 

No, but from my observations every one of them seems to know one, who will feed them the only parts of the story that will back up what they've
read, and not the caveats. I am not saying a younger set of ears cannot recognize a difference in sounds, but you and I both know, few inexperienced
listeners can tell the differences between a quality vinyl experience, and simple characteristics of the playback mediums based on other factors.

Do we really have to dredge out the old sound-floor, mastering-differences and EQ-curve arguments again? It goes without saying, what you're hearing
in the two playback systems can be different, but few novices' ears can trace the source for these differences directly to the "warmth of vinyl", versus
the "cold digital sterility". Training really does make a difference here, whether it's a lifetime of critical listening, or a helpful golden-ears-type helping
advise a young listener on what to focus. Then the confidence to base your judgements on what you know you're hearing for yourself.

I've had younger family members try and lecture me on what I'm missing out on by not embracing this new medium called "vinyls", assuming they just
didn't know I was critically listening to them before they were on this earth. I've had cokehead broadcast engineeers brag of how they can tell an mp3 from
a wav file even though they're listening through an audio chain that a program director has to help them tune because our listenership lives in cars, not at
home tied to a pair of Sennheisers. Then I've encountered those friends who blatantly deny CD playback doesn't have any flaws at all, categorically. But I
rarely meet a real hipster...maybe I'm hanging out at the wrong coffee shops....





Now playing on Ariel Stream: Jena (Witts) - You're Mine

 

The ELP turntable is all-analogue. There's no digitisation.

 

And the ELP still sucks while it is analog. Has no life. Sounds neutered. Many a good bargain table blows it into the weeds.

 

If you take care of your records, use a half way decent turntable and cart and make sure it's aligned properly most of your records are gonna outlive you anyway.

So who really needs a laser turntable? It sounds like more trouble than what it's worth.