The Last Waltz - THE CD

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Kayaker, Apr 22, 2002.

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  1. Kayaker

    Kayaker Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    New Joisey Now
    I figured we need a new thread to discuss the aural merits of the new 4 CD set and NOT the movie (nor the benefits of movie theater vs home theater)

    I just finished listining to CD's #1 and part of #3 (the Dylan tracks). The sound on these CD's is phenomenal. Absolute audiophile. Goosebumps on "The Weight". The biggest surprise was the HDCD light that illuminated on my Linn CD player. There is no mention of it being HDCD encoded on the package, nor in the liner notes. There is a page praising Paul Allen for his help in the sound mixing for the CD, DVD AND DVD-Audio (must be a Microsoft/HDCD connection in there). Instruments are finely detailed - even when there are a lot of them. The sound is full range, not compressed - without any audible hiss. The bonus tracks are a huge plus. The booklet is good, well written. The pictures are fun to look at. However, whoever designed this new CD case deserves to be shot. Hard to describe it, (never seen it before) but it is very difficult to get the CD's in and out - a foam thinggy in the middle to hold the CD's.
    An expensive impulse buy (I thought I was going to only get the DVD) - but one I will always cherish.
     
  2. Richard Feirstein

    Richard Feirstein New Member

    Location:
    Albany, NY
    Take a look at how microsoft ships Windows XP and you will see that same CD mount system.
     
  3. Kayaker

    Kayaker Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    New Joisey Now
    Reissue Credits:
    Produced by Robbie Robertson
    Mixing Engineer : Dan Gellert
    Editing and Additional Engineering: Patrick McDougal
    Audio Restoration: Terry Davidson
    Mastering: Steve Hal
    Production Coordinator: Jared Levine
    Technical Coordinator: David Dysart
     
  4. Kayaker

    Kayaker Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    New Joisey Now
    sorry that was Steve Hall
     
  5. Humorem

    Humorem New Member

    Location:
    LOS ANGELES
    Where did the hiss go, may I ask? Did somebody wave a magic wand? Or did they use a medicine which is worse than the disease?

    When there is no audible hiss, that is a BAD thing. I am unaware of any exceptions to that rule.

    I hate denoised CDs. If I buy this set it will have to be for the love of the music. I will do my best to tolerate the airless, harmonically challenged sound (assuming what you say is true that the hiss has been removed), but to date I have found that my denoised CDs tend to sit in a box, not in the player.

    TP
     
  6. Kayaker

    Kayaker Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    New Joisey Now
    Mea Culpa. My fault in wording and listining. The hiss has not been removed. Hear it distinctly on the quieter passages and if I put my ear to the tweeter. The term "audible" is relative and I will be more careful using it next time.
     
  7. Matt

    Matt New Member

    Location:
    Illinois
    Juan,

    I think there's a mixed opinion about Inglot, though people tend to lean one way or another.

    First, Steve doesn't try to make his opinions on mastering engineers too well-known, for professional reasons. His praise for Inglot is based more on his role as a reissue producer.

    From what I can gather, here's the bottom line on Bill Inglot & co.:

    As a reissue producer, Inglot is, in some ways, very good. Not perfect, but much better than most. He usually uses the best sources available and the correct tapes, and, to me, is very good at searching for the correct master tapes. Sometimes, in a case like the Ray Charles Atlantic box set, he makes a goof or two, and others, like the Everly Brothers Cadence recordings, it's a frustrating search that doesn't reach complete fruition (some songs on the 20 Cadence Classics used copies; it wasn't until later that Inglot finally found all the right tapes). Otherwise, he's better than most.

    Most complaints I've heard about Inglot center around two things: his preference for mono and the way he EQ's his music.

    He didn't always prefer mono. Listen to an earlier CD, like the Rascals Anthology, the Righteous Brothers double disc set, or the Four Seasons Anthology from 1988, and you'll find true stereo versions all over the map. I'm not sure what changed his perspective and when, but eventually he gravitated towards mono only releases. On the one hand, he defends this practice by pointing out that most artists focused their attention on the mono mixes (e.g. the Beatles), and often it was the mono mix that mattered, the mono mix that became the hit single, etc. It's a valid argument, I think, but some pointed out that he's used folded-down stereo mixes in some CD's he's produced (I think Nuggets is one where he did this). I'm not sure why he'd do this, but it doesn't make much sense to me. Some people also say, "He should've used the stereo version for 'so-and-so' because the mono mix just blows!" This is also a valid argument, because let's face it, just because an artist spends more time on the mono mix, it doesn't necessarily mean it's the better mix. Maybe that sound's wrong, but I think the best mix is simply whatever seems better to you, not because so-and-so spent more time with it and left the stereo mix to the engineer. Maybe Anthony Burgess did want that last, optimistic chapter on "Clockwork Orange," but I know plenty of people who think the book is better without it, which was how some editions published it.

    Anyway, as for sound quality, that just bugs the hell out everyone. He doesn't ALWAYS do this, but a lot of his releases, particularly Rhino releases, have a top end boost, and often shave off some of the bass as well. The Stax-Volt box set is probably the one set people here unanimously love, and one reason out of many is because he doesn't mess with the sound. I think Inglot and Dan Hersch pretty much mastered it flat, on a vintage tube system, too. I think the Ray Charles Atlantic set was mastered flat, too. But, man, take one listen to the Nuggets box, or the Everly Brothers sets, or the Disco Years, and many others...YEEESH! Very thin, bass-shy...hell, put these in and crank it up. Hear that annoying ear-bleeding sound? That's actually a trend in current "remasters." A 10k boost, usually 3, maybe even 6 db. Compare the Buddy Holly remasters (not done by Inglot) with Steve's From the Original Master Tapes and crank them up. It's there.

    Next time you play a Rhino CD, if you have a good parametric EQ (and I mean GOOD, not a cheap-o one, otherwise it'll degrade the sound so much, it won't be worth your while), try removing some of the top and maybe even adding some bass. I think Steve recommended removing 3 db at 10k (slope of 6), 2 db at 6k (slope of 6), adding 1 db at 500 (slope of 6), 1 db at 100 (slope of 6), and 2 db at 50 (shelf). You may even want to remove even more from the top. If you have the equipment, try it (or try doing it on ProTools or something and burning a CD-R of it).
     
  8. CM Wolff

    CM Wolff Senior Member

    Location:
    Motown
    Uh-oh!!! Better post this in the recent "Audio Restoration" thread....
     
  9. indy mike

    indy mike Forum Pest

    Matt - nicely worded commentary on Bill I. - that Nuggets box (oh, no, here I go again!!!) is so thin and missing bass in those warm fuzzy regions that I get honked off every time I play it - I love the booklet, the tracks were pretty well chosen, but soundwise, yeccchhhhh... As for Steve/Inglot comments, professional courtesy sez let's not discuss others' stuff - after all, I'll betcha Steve has to depend on Bill and others in the biz to help out on projects via research or leads on good tape sources...
     
  10. Tullman

    Tullman Senior Member

    Location:
    Boston MA
    I didn't like the rhino releases of elp. If Inglot is responsible for those then he deserves criticism.
     
  11. Rspaight

    Rspaight New Member

    Location:
    Kentucky
    I listened to some of this set last night and am happy with the sound. I heard plenty of amp hum and buzz, as well as some hiss, so I don't think a huge amount of denoising was done. In any case, the music sounded lively and full to me, so it seems appropriate care was taken.

    As an interesting aside, Robertson in his notes mentions that he likes the "warmth and texture" of LPs, but also liked the fact that he could put out 4 CDs with twice the material of the old 3 LP set.

    Ryan
     
  12. KLM

    KLM Senior Member

    OK my copy of the Last Waltz arrived today and WOW. If you are a fan of the Band then this seems to be a MUST HAVE no-brainer. I've listened to the first disc and It is recorded a bit hot and possibly with some compression but overall the sound is very good. Plus now they have included 25 additional songs not released in the original 3 lp set. Altogether a very nice package with great photos and written commentary. And the songs with the Band and/or guests are glorious. Overall I think Rhino did a nice job on this one.

    I'd be interested to hear what someone thinks of the DVD-A version when it becomes available.
     
  13. Ken_McAlinden

    Ken_McAlinden MichiGort Staff

    Location:
    Livonia, MI
    This thread is a bit stale, but I finally picked up the CD set this week. My assessment of the sound is more in line with KLM's than some of the earlier unqualified raves. The dynamics have been flattened a little more than I would like, but it is otherwise a well compiled and presented release. The bonus concert tracks are pretty great. I too would be interested in anyone's opinion of the DVD-Audio release. There are things I like about the audio mastering on the DVD-Video better than on the CD. "Coyote" is one number that really shines on the video, probably due mostly to the dynamics issue, but possibly also because of the spaciousness of the surround mix.

    Regards,
     
  14. czeskleba

    czeskleba Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    I'm curious... on the previously-released tracks, do the new CDs feature the same heavily-overdubbed-in-the-studio versions that appeared on the original album? I was always disappointed that the album version of "Further on Up the Road" is "fixed" to not include the moment where Clapton's guitar strap comes loose mid solo and Robbie has to take over on the fly, for example...
     
  15. Sckott

    Sckott Hand Tighten Only.

    Location:
    South Plymouth, Ma
    On the 4CD, you can hear when Eric loses the guitar strap, and Robbie takes over. The 4CD set has more music in 1/2 of the musical appearences that the movie had. Then there's lots of music that was not on the movie too :) Plus jams and other stuff.
     
  16. Kayaker

    Kayaker Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    New Joisey Now
    Hey Ken,
    Do you have an HDCD decoder on your CD player?. Could be the difference in what we both hear.
     
  17. Ken_McAlinden

    Ken_McAlinden MichiGort Staff

    Location:
    Livonia, MI
    No HDCD decoding ability for me. Also, I never owned the original album, so my only points of reference are the current CD and DVD releases and the RF analog stereo soundtrack on my old laserdisc.

    Regards,
     
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