The Loudness War - developments

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by amoergosum, May 22, 2017.

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  1. amoergosum

    amoergosum Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Germany
    "Spotify just reduced it’s loudness playback level !

    The post title says it all – in the last few days it’s become clear that Spotify have chosen to reduce their playback loudness reference level from approximately -11 LUFS down to approximately -14, broadly in line with YouTube and TIDAL.

    This is a big deal, and in a minute I’ll discuss why, but before that – what does it mean, in simple terms ?

    In a nutshell, it it means it doesn’t matter how high you push the level of your mixes and masters. Once the raw loudness of the files gets past a certain point, online streaming services will turn them down – keeping them all at the same reference level, to stop users being annoyed by sudden changes in volume.

    Exactly where the “point of no return” is varies slightly between different streaming services, but Spotify always used to be the loudest, by a whopping 2-3dB.

    And this was a real shame, because it put pressure on musicians, labels and engineers to make the raw loudness levels higher to try and “compete” – even if it didn’t suit the style of the music.

    But now, all that has changed."

    Full article:

    Spotify just reduced it's loudness playback level ! - Production Advice



    [​IMG]
     
  2. amoergosum

    amoergosum Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Germany
    What you CAN do is sending bands (and mastering engineers, labels ) who release a new album with a good dynamic range, an email/tweet/Facebook message. Let them know that you really appreciate the dynamic range, that the album hasn't been brickwalled. Tell them how great it is to listen to an album without getting ear fatigue.
    Also let bands know about your disappointment when they release poorly mastered albums.

    That's what I've been doing.

    For example: a couple of days ago I sent an email to NERVE (Jojo Mayer's band) and their mastering engineer (Alex DeTurk) in order to thank them.

    Here's a quote from Alex DeTurk's reply:

    "John [the bass player] has had the courage to not give into the “industry standard” levels of mastering, and in this case I think the results speak for themselves."


    You have to let people involved know what it means to you.



    P.S.:

    Here's someone who doesn't give up:

    Bob Ludwig on the mastering of Avenged Sevenfold's 'The Stage' (2017 imterview):

    "...a few days later, and I almost timed it to the hour, they came back to me nervous that it wouldn't be as impressively loud as their peers' recording...so I mastered a version that was kind of a split difference...so they were still on the fence. And then I sent them the Loudness War YouTube video that Matt Mayfield so wonderfully made years ago that in two minutes sums up the Loudness War in a way that anybody can understand...and as soon as they saw that they came back to me and went with my most dynamic version. So that's what was released, including the singles."

    How awesome it that!

    ...so Bob Ludwig convinced the band to choose the most dynamic version by sending them this video:

     
  3. Scott Davies

    Scott Davies Forum Resident

    Well, no victory until you start seeing modern day POPULAR artists releasing CD's with full dynamic range. Most will still probably judge on loudness, even if it may no longer mean anything in the great scheme of things. But we will see. Then we will start another avalanche of reissues stating "New Dynamic Remaster!"
     
    BDC, ispace, marc with a c and 11 others like this.
  4. Chemguy

    Chemguy Forum Resident

    Location:
    Western Canada
    True enough. But you have to start somewhere!
     
    marc with a c, Grant and NorthNY Mark like this.
  5. smoke

    smoke Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago
    This is good news, and the profit motive will undoubtedly fuel a "New Dynamic Remaster!" movement in a few year's time.

    Anything that brings it an inch or two closer is fine by me.
     
    Gardo, Jarleboy, John B Good and 6 others like this.
  6. Stereosound

    Stereosound Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    05 / 23 / 17

    The Recording Academy P&E Wing Hi-Res Music Prod. Recommendation
    [​IMG]
    Coinciding with "Stream the Studio" panel featuring leading executives from the music and technology industries, The Recording Academy Producers & Engineers Wing has released their "Recommendations for Hi-Resolution Music Production" paper. As the result of three years of extensive research, this new set of technical guidelines joins other influential papers previously published by the P&E Wing promoting best practices in audio recording. The Recommendations were developed by a group of leading Recording Academy members, including numerous multiple Grammy Award-winning engineers and producers, and included input from a wide cross section of the recording industry. Covered in the document are a variety of topics including Hi-Res Audio definitions; hardware and software considerations; recording and mixing parameters; the pros and cons of upsampling; provenance; and other important issues. "The release of this new set of recommendations is a milestone," states Maureen Droney, The Recording Academy Managing Director, P&E Wing. "We are extremely excited by the collaborative efforts and shared vision of our industry towards the goal of providing consumers with studio-quality music listening. We are proud to be a partner in this initiative and also very grateful to all of the recording professionals who contributed their thoughts and expertise to this important document." The debut of this new reference document coincides with "Stream the Studio – The Next Wave in Subscription Music," a panel sponsored by The DEG: The Digital Entertainment Group, held at the Music Biz 2017 conference in Nashville. In addition to Droney, the panel featured leading music and technology executives including Richard Burgess, A2IM; Ty Roberts, Universal Music Group; Howie Singer, Warner Music Group; and Darren Stupak, Sony Music Entertainment. It was moderated by Marc Finer, Sr. Director, DEG: The Digital Entertainment Group. For more information on the"Recommendations for Hi-Res Music Production" you can see the details within their PDF at this link.
     
    EVOLVIST likes this.
  7. Tim Müller

    Tim Müller Forum Resident

    Location:
    Germany
    Hello,

    I really wonder, why re-releases of classic albums are more and more compressed and clipped/limited from re-issue to re-issue.

    I mean, classic albums. Everybody knows the old songs, and knows the old-fashioned style of mastering or recording of these classic albums. Everybody loved that sound. Those old-style recordings, masterings became the well know hit version of the songs.

    What is the rational behind compressing and limiting classic albums in the re-mastering stage?
    The original uncompressed non-remastered version is already on airplay. And probably will be for a long time, as radio librarians probably are not going to buy or include every new edition/re-issue of a song into their library.
    This non-remastered version already on air play is the source for demand of a classic album, along with gossip in magazines, forums, or whatever.

    Will people in record stores listen to re-mastered re-issues of classic albums before deciding to buy them or not? Will they check whether they are compressed to death, and buy them just in this case?

    On forums, compression is almost always and everytime considered a degradation in sound quality.
    People who actually care about sound quality always hate dynamic compression the way it is applied during re-mastering.
    Do people who don't care about sound quality really like the compressed-to-death re-masters better than the non-remastered original versions? Or do they just don't care?

    Especially, when it comes to expensive priced super deluxe editions of a re-issue and re-master of a classic album. With high-resolution versions of the re-masters on audio-only blu rays: Do people who buy such expensive boxes really like or even demand compressed-to-death re-masters of their favourite classic albums?
    Or, wouldn't they be happy with a re-mastered version of their favourite classic album with much less dynamic compression than applied to the original LP mastering?
    (And, maybe only as a give-away, a compressed version for mobile use...)

    I really don't get the logic behind the re-mastering rule of degrading the sound quality by dynamic compression. Why mus every re-master have less dynamic than any previously released version?

    That's why I don't by current CDs new from shops. I buy CDs second-hand as original issues, without the loudness fad.
    That's why neither record companies nor artist make any revenue from my music shopping.

    It's all explained in the famous youtube on loudness war,

    Best regards
     
  8. Davey

    Davey NP: Portishead ~ Portishead (1997)

    Location:
    SF Bay Area, USA
    Generally speaking yes, just go over to Amazon or any of the other mainstream sites and read reviews. They almost always like the "full bodied" new versions compared to the "anemic" and "tinny" old sounding CDs. Have you really not experienced that in the last 25 years? :)
     
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  9. Tim Müller

    Tim Müller Forum Resident

    Location:
    Germany
    Well,
    no.
    My guess is, if people buy new re-releases of albums they already own, they tend to talk their decision good. Who would commit in having wasted money? Made a foolish decision?

    I'd really liked to have a double-blind listening of full-dynamic original releases and re-mastered releases matched to perceived loudness, with audiophiles and "average" people.

    Regards
     
  10. Synthfreek

    Synthfreek I’m a ray of sunshine & bastion of positivity

    Many people here assume that the masses care about things like sound quality. Do you think the average listener even knows what compression, mastering, limiting, etc. even means? The average listener probably has no idea that different edition CDs contain different sounding music. A CD is a CD.
     
    MrBungle82, Gary7704, ricks and 8 others like this.
  11. Schoolmaster Bones

    Schoolmaster Bones Poe's Lawyer

    Location:
    ‎The Midwest
    What's a CD?
     
  12. Vorlon

    Vorlon Forum Resident

    Location:
    Norway
    I think the thing here is so simple they think all of us are listenening on those pathethic portable units with earbuds. I have said this many times before, and shoot me for repeating, I can take the bullets, have kevlar protection here, around my body as well as in my B/W midranges :p
     
  13. Ninja Bomber

    Ninja Bomber Forum Resident

    Location:
    Norway
    On the other hand, you could just listen to the actual music. Now there's a novel idea, am I right?
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2017
  14. agentalbert

    agentalbert Senior Member

    Location:
    San Antonio, TX
    And I wish we'd hurry up and get to that point.
     
  15. Sandinista

    Sandinista Forum Resident


    Funny - I was talking today with the admin asst's in my dept and two of them are considerably younger than me - we were talking about music and one of them asked if I ever listened to new music (since I am normally talking about older music as one of the admins is a Dead fan and we shoot the breeze about upcoming releases etc) and I said, yeah but not as much anymore as most new music is so compressed and she just looked at me blankly.

    What do you mean, she says.

    I briefly explain and say something along the lines of once you hear it you really can't UNhear it and she exclaims, "Don't tell me anymore! I DON'T WANT TO HEAR IT!"

    :laugh:

    There are a lot more of her than there are of us.
     
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  16. Ninja Bomber

    Ninja Bomber Forum Resident

    Location:
    Norway
    And how in the world would that surprise you?

    I'd much rather listen to compressed music I actually enjoy, than uncompressed music that bores me to tears.
     
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  17. DRM

    DRM Forum Resident

    A CD is something you still have?
     
  18. Sandinista

    Sandinista Forum Resident

    It didn't surprise me - I just thought it was sort of an amusing example to support what Synthfreek just posted.
     
    bzfgt likes this.
  19. DRM

    DRM Forum Resident

    When I was much younger, I could listen to music on a transistor radio and love it.
     
  20. mpayan

    mpayan A Tad Rolled Off

    No, actually you cant. Some of the musics missing.

    And frankly I get sick of these comments. Sound quality is a major emphasis at this forum.
     
  21. DRM

    DRM Forum Resident

    Don't get too sick.

    It's Friday!

    The main point was that listening to boring music uncompressed is less desirable, for some, than listening to great music that might be over-compressed.

    Like anything, there's a balance.

    Some like the new Sgt. Pepper's, some don't.

    Some think it's overly compressed, others are okay with it.
     
    Retrovertigo likes this.
  22. E.Baba

    E.Baba Forum Resident

    This ^
    I did actually buy recently remastered and modern release on vinyl and it's just the smashed digital version pressed onto vinyl. It was bloody awful; all loud and harsh. The vintage vinyl I was trying to upgrade has a detailed and organic midrange. It's very common. Have tried this half a dozen times where the old copies cost too much. When there's a new version on the market for half the price there must still be buyers for the overpriced old versions or they would come down in price. (Mind you I have to add $30 postage to a get a record sent to me from the US. That's too much thanks USPS. Business going elsewhere but makes it hard to buy vintage US pressings !).
     
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  23. Ninja Bomber

    Ninja Bomber Forum Resident

    Location:
    Norway
    Ridiculous. I love good sound. But I love good music much more. If sound quality is not secondary to the actual music, you're obviously not that interested in music in the first place.

    And I also see that you haven't filled in your equipment profile. Which I understand is demanded if you are going to make any comments on sound quality on this forum. So for all we know, you could be listening to your music through the built-in speaker of your cellphone. And yet you are here trying to lecture the rest of us on sound quality. Is there a good reason why your equipment profile is blank?
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2017
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  24. Ninja Bomber

    Ninja Bomber Forum Resident

    Location:
    Norway
    Exactly. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with wanting good sounding music. But who cares if something sounds good if the music is crap.
     
    mikaal likes this.
  25. mpayan

    mpayan A Tad Rolled Off

    I didnt say it isnt secondary. But your off handed initial comment is typical of many that try and belittle those who think that sound quality IS important. And whether you like it or not that is what the emphasis of this forum is.

    I listen to a lot of music in which the sound quality is not optimal. Love the album Bully. Listened to The National today. Why? Because I love the music. So yeah buddy youre mistaken about my views.

    And that comment about equipment profiles is really old. Anyone can put anything in that profile and be a liar. So its meaningless. Also I can hear when dynamics have been compromised with 25$ earbuds and my iphone. And anyone can. So its irrelevant to the discussion.

    The equipment profile thing was discussed a lot on a thread awhile back. And it was deemed nonsensical. And pretty much useless. I could list my system and you still have no idea what it sounds like all put together and in my living room. Unless you have an identical system and living room. Do you? If so, thats weird lol.

    Good reason? Yeah I have a GREAT reason. People like yourself tossing in some smug remark about equipment profile as if Im suppose to back up and feel threatened by you.

    The jab about equipment profiles is done simply to run down some silly rabbit hole to get away from the real issue that is at hand.

    Which is peoples distaste for those who care about sound quality by making smarmy remarks such as your initial one.
     
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