I don't really see how the limited edition gets "undermined". If you're not a Monkees fanatic, and just want the TV series, there's NO WAY you're paying $200 for it, unless you've got money to burn. If you are a Monkees fanatic, you've gotta have the HEAD outtakes, the complete performance of the "Listen To The Band" from 33 1/3, the "Randy Scouse Git" performance, the TV appearances from '69, etc. This is one of those releases where it's pretty cut-and-dried who will be buying it and who will be passing on it. No casual Monkees fan ever bought a Rhino Handmade CD box set, and no casual fan will be ponying up for this, either... I do agree that it is a good thing that a cheaper version will be made available, eventually. It just kinda sucks that those folks will most likely have to wait about a year for it. But better late than never.
By "undermined" I meant a cheaper edition of just the TV series would cut into potential sales the $200 set, as opposed to if that edition was the only one that would be made available. A cheaper edition would make it even more difficult to move 10,000 units of the limited set at 200 bucks a pop. (Which I think even some true fans of the group might deem too expensive, bonus material notwithstanding.) Sure, the HEAD outtakes will be interesting, but how many will be there? What if there is less than five minutes worth of footage? Will that be worth a $200 outlay? When Andrew Sandoval was talking about the movie the time the Criterion collection came out, he mentioned there was a LOT of unreleased material. If any major trove of unreleased HEAD outtakes was to be released, don't you think Rhino would create a special edition of just that? This is why I'm not too optimistic there will be much on the upcoming set. Lumping everything on a grab-bag-like bonus disc (with Rhino being reticent about revealing any running times) suggests there just won't be all that much. Look, I hope I'm proven wrong. I really hope the limited edition is well worth the money. I just wish Rhino was more upfront with running times. And how about more "before and after" restoration clips - but of episodes that weren't originally processed to look bad in the first place. (If the studio sequences of"The Monkees In Paris" had been originally processed to look rough in comparison to the Paris footage, it was very disingenuous of Rhino to use that as an example of the "improved" picture quality of the bluray set.)
My agreement was more about the cheaper version coming out rather than the undermining part. I just hope I don't have to wait a year for it. Lol
Can we please lose the idea/speculation the the Paris episode was 'made' to look rough? That is just as silly as those people who were saying a few years ago that HEAD was meant to be seen in 4:3 because "that's what was on the film". The original DVD sets were of varied quality. Some looked pretty good, and some looked like crap. This wasn't based on anything more than that was what was available to Rhino at the time. This hindsight revisionism is getting absurd. Why is it so hard to believe that TV people didn't care about substandard quality for many, many years? Anyone remember how the reruns of STAR TREK or M*A*S*H used to look on TV even into the late 80's? They look like $hit, bottom line. THE MONKEES, as much as we're fans, was simply what it is: a TV show that was *NOT* made as 'high art'--it was disposable TV aimed at 12 year olds. The fact that it is now discussed as highly as it is 50 years later is a thing which was NEVER thought of back in '66. The fact that we're getting pristine transfers that--truth be told--probably never even looked this good upon original airings, is just a stroke of a LOT of factors coming together at just the right times. There are HUNDREDS of shows and the fans of them that could never even DREAM of their show(s) getting even HALF of the caring treatment that the 2 seasons of THE MONKEES are getting with this set.
This set will absolutely look better than when these episodes were originally aired as they didn't have HD broadcast or TV set back then.
And for some discussion of the substandard attitude of TV producers and studios for years, check out the following thread: http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/did-syndication-prints-really-look-this-bad.320757/
Sorry, but I'm not going to "lose the idea/speculation the Paris episode was 'made' to look rough". I'm not the only one who has picked up on this. The Paris footage looks fine, but every time they cut back to Jim Frawley in the studio, the picture quality looks lousy. Both the Japanese LD and the Rhino DVD are identical in this regard. (How could a film print go from good to trashed to good throughout, in the exact same spots, unless by design?) What's more, while you are entitled to your opinions, don't tell others to stop having opposing view points. This thread is a free discussion about the upcoming bluray set, not an appreciation thread about it. (Unlike many people here, I don't automatically genuflect whenever Rhino announces Monkees product....) It shouldn't be taken as personal affront that some of us aren't 100% on board with the bluray set. Quite a few of us think Rhino could and should have included all of the alternate soundtracks, not a mere 10 of the Saturday morning repeat ones. We are of the mind that this somewhat of a lost opportunity.
Here's the episode (which I'm assuming is ripped from the DVD) for discussion. It's very simple how they can go from one extreme to the other: If film along the way was printed with defects, then those defects will still be there on a dupe of a dupe of a dupe, only magnified. These shows, were *not* mastered over the years from the original negs. every time. They were printed from printing dupes or even other positive prints. Think of it in the same way as people discuss vinyl pressings around here. The farther you get from the original, the more defect will still be inherent. What I see on the above attached "print" (the opening credit do *NOT* count, as they were inserted by Rhino--hence the MAJOR shift of quality). The *ENTIRE* episode is washed out and lacks color. The whole source is faded and is NOT very vibrant. There *ARE* scenes which are obviously dupes which were made during editing, because one scene will show MAJOR amounts of dirt, only to vanish after one edit. Dust, scratches, etc....print it once, it's there forever. Dupe it, and it gets worse and worse. Trust me, I'm not taking this as any sort of personal afront....quite hard to do considering I actually don't know you 'personally'. I have no idea if you have ever worked with film formats or have done film archiving or restoration. I have, so I'm sorry. To say that the episode linked above looks like it does because of "artistic choice" is just misguided information. And yes. That's *my* opinion. YMMV.
That print *was* rather dark. The differences between the studio shots and the Paris footage is much easier to discern on the Japanese LD. I just re-watched the LD version and it's just how I remembered it/described it earlier: the studio shots are over-processed with way too much contrast. Yet, the Paris footage has proper contrast, skin tones, and the ladies' outfits are bright and colorful. Every time they cut back to Jim Frawley at the studio, the picture goes back to being over-processed and foul-looking. And every time they go back to Paris, things look normal once again (but since the Paris stuff was shot outdoors on 16mm, it does look a bit different than a typical Monkees episode). I'll rip the LD and post the episode here in the next day or so. (The only DVD eps I've really watched are the 18 not in the LD box, as I prefer the brighter/warmer colors of the LD.)
If Rafelson wasn't such a grinch we might've had the extended edition of HEAD. Then again some of what were getting now may be because he's softened up a bit. Also, I'd imagine if RHINO were flubbing the remaster of the Paris episode, Rafelson might have something to say about it. EDIT: For anything that isn't on the blu ray set probably has the DVDs to refer to (i.e. the Auger commentary.) Any Monkee fan worth their salt knows you always, ALWAYS keep previous editions of anything because not everything carries over every time. A "Definitive" set is not the same as a "Complete" set.
I was going to comment on "The Monkees In Paris" episode, but Chip TRG has already gone into detail about it. I definitely don't think it was an artistic decision to make the studio footage look crappy. There are other episodes on the two Rhino DVD box sets that look horrible, too. It's already been said that the materials they had to work with at that time for the VHS box were of varying quality. They even took time to repair/replace/fix stuff where feasible. It sounds like you don't watch all of the DVDs because you prefer the Japanese LD, but there are a handful of other episodes that look abysmal like "Paris". As for the rest of your comments, everyone is entitled to their opinions. In all honesty, if Rhino were simply releasing the entire series in HD, like they are doing, and decided to throw in HEAD and 33 1/3, and nothing else, this release would still be worth $200. They are spending an inordinate amount of money restoring every episode, for a series that I didn't think would ever get the attention. Over the past few months, I have gone back and watched every Monkees episode on these DVDs with my two young sons (who I'm happy to say are big Monkees fans!), and just like the last time I went through the series, I lamented the shape that some of the episodes were in. Given the expense of restoring the series, and the fact that we're talking about a series that lacks the mass appeal of a MASH, or Friends, or All In The Family, etc (not to mention the state of physical media sales nowadays), the price is not out of line at all. To me, the bonus disc is pure gravy and the fact that it contains as much cool stuff as it does is mind-blowing. Just getting the full, unedited "Listen To The Band" is something I never thought I'd see. As for Rhino not giving the running times of the extras: I suspect that the bonus features are just being finalized NOW, as we speak. The packaging is supposedly finished, and replication of 10,000 Blu Rays doesn't take that much time. I think the biggest reason for the delay in release was because of the extra stuff they've been going through up until now. I predict that once this is released Monkees fanatics like ourselves will be singing its praises. I fully expect this will end up being one of my 10 favorite Blu Ray's in my collection, and my collection is fairly extensive...
A mind's perception is its reality. When I was a kid I remember seeing a Disney film called "The Love Bug" about a VW Beetle with magical powers. Anyway, I only had vague, but happy memory of it. I talked my wife into renting a copy of the movie for us to watch together. WOW! Was I embarrassed! Yes, the Monkees TV series is quite bad! HAHAHAHA!!!
Does anyone know if this version will be on it? Just Kidding!!! I'm really looking forward to the 33 1/3 bonus stuff and clean copy of Nine Times Blue from Johnny Cash. I don't have a problem with the $ investment at all. Keep on making more deluxe sets!!
I haven't bought any of the deluxe sets, but I'm looking forward to this. It's all the Monkees I need.
Ripped both the DVD & LD of "The Monkees in Paris" to the computer tonight. I'm still convinced the "studio" shots in the episode were processed to look worse than the 16mm material from Paris, but it was also quite obvious the DVD was mastered with more contrast than the LD. Below are some screen shots from both (while I tried to get the pics to match, they might be off by a frame or two). Here's the opening shot. Neither look very natural.: Now on to the footage from Paris... Here's the girl who was chasing Micky. The contrast on the DVD is such the mattress is now bright white. (IMO, the LD looks a bit more natural here.) Here's Peter. The high contrast of the DVD bleaches out his white shirt quire nicely. Another picture that shows the contrast difference between the two sources: (continued...)
The group is being chased. Micky's jacket looks light blue and white on the DVD, but just light blue on the LD. (IMO, Mike's shirt is a bit too "contrasty" on the DVD too.) Now, it's back to the studio: I was stunned to see how much more of the image can be seen on the LD, and how the colors are better than the DVD. But, we're back to the unnatural contrast boost not seen in the Paris footage. The final image in this series. The LD still shows better color than the DVD, and more image as well. After looking at both again, the DVD's digital picture obviously has higher contrast (to go along with its slightly sharper image), so I prefer the LD for its more subtle contrast. Finally, I still cannot see how anyone thinks the studio footage doesn't look like it does by design. The LD makes it clear how the contrast level of the studio footage is very artificial compared to the more natural-looking footage from Paris.
I'm sure with each release (and not just with this episode or this series) things are tweaked a little given the technology that is available for restoration purposes at that given time.
Thanks for this info! I had no idea this had been released. If I had known, I would have made sure I tracked it down. Good to know!
The Jap LD looks like a different but just as washed out source. AND it's a horrible transfer. That murky blue haze is in every screen shot there. All I can gather is that both transfers look like they came from different, albeit sub-par sources. And we're not going to agree on your idea on the "artistic license" that you think was used. I'm sorry. As romantic of an idea it is to to think that Rafelson, et al, shot it on purpose to look like crap to be 'artsy', the plain truth is that the DVD in question was spurced from a $hitty, beat up 16MM dupe print. The credits look like they were dragged through a sandbox and the photo-duped through a smudged lens. They may have gotten away with that later on with HEAD, but there was no way in hell that NBC in 1967/8, (when networks gave a damn about quality control) would let a prime-time network show look like that. None. Hate me if you want, but as much as I respect your artistic integrity (your alternate universe covers are nothing short of brilliant!), I'm sorry, but you're just wrong on this one. If you enjoy watching it like that, then that is the bottom line and no one can take that away from you, but a crap print is a crap print, and that's what PARIS is on the DVD set. The first run network prints are long gone, so all we have had for years are dupes of dupes. Now that the negatives are being utilized for the first time since the first run, we are seeing how the original prints looked for the first time in decades. Obviously they were never BROADCAST in anything other than the 1968 era telecine chains of NBC, but the prints that were aired on network affiliates across the US would have looked supreme.
Here's my idea / two cents... What if the quality was degraded purposely on this particular episode? What if they made it look like it was actually outtake footage, and not meant to look like all the other episodes? Give it that outtakes "feeling", if you know what i mean. Again, just my two cents; your amount may vary.
Thanks for taking the time to do screen captures of both for comparison's sake. I know a bunch of us here appreciate it. I am not an expert on the Monkees TV show, but I have read bits and pieces here and there over the years and I know this series (like many others that have had several different syndication runs) has had more than its fair share of trials and tribulations, bouncing around from daytime to later syndication, to the MTV reruns in the 80's, plus Nickelodeon and future airings in other countries. The materials get used and abused. That is why the quality varies as it does on the VHS/DVD boxes. No doubt the materials used for the Japanese LD box set (I believe you said it was from the early 90's?) differed from what was used for the VHS and DVD box sets done by Rhino. Which would account for the differing levels of contrast, etc. As a side note: do you know why the LD box set didn't include all of the episodes? Were those the only ones dubbed into Japanese? Or was there some other reason? Just curious... Also, I keep forgetting to tell you how cool your avatar is! Is there a larger version of that "Plastic Soul" image anywhere??
Exactly! What we will see on the new Blu Ray box will be superior to what anyone has seen before, including when the episodes were first run. Using the original negs will reveal details we've never seen before, and what 60's TV resolution was incapable of revealing.
The entire series was dubbed into Japanese, not just 40 episodes. It's likely the manufacturer only wanted to do a set with 10 discs, as opposed to 15. (When the series was originally televised in Japan, the group's 1968 Budokan concert was was edited into two segments shown in the show's usual timeslot. The concert film only exists as an audio recording now.) My avatar? It was originally created as a joke in a thread when I first started posting here. (Since it was done as a joke, I never made a really high-res version of it. This page has the original, but with its first title: http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/alternate-fantasy-monkees-albums.188735/page-5)
