The most important system character- Soundstage

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by allied333, Apr 18, 2021.

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  1. allied333

    allied333 Audiophile Thread Starter

    Location:
    nowhere
    Besides low distortion that is absolutely required, the soundstage may be the most important attribute in a stereo system. I never paid a lot of attention what makes a stereo system sound good, just knew what I liked. Today, I compared my rebuilt Allied 395 to my upgraded with best tubes Allied 333. (A stock Allied 333 sounds poor IMO). The Allied 395 is low distortion and sounds good. However, the Allied 395 emits sound from the speakers as I sense it and the soundstage does not extend much beyond the speakers edge. The sound is in-between the speakers. It is very obvious where the speakers are in the room.
    The Allied 333 has a huge soundstage and far beyond the speaker edges. The speakers disappear completely and the music is projected into the room. The voices are also more realistic in that it sounds like the performers are in the room. And, the stereo separation is greater vs the Allied 395.

    What I do not get is how is this huge soundstage accomplished? Same speakers, same location, same record.
     
  2. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    Ive been curious about what exactly is causing this phenomena too.
    There are certainly masterings that sound like they eminate from the speakers while others dont too.
    Im guessing it has to do with a combination of stereo separation, good panning, some reverb and maybe use of less pin pointable frequencies perhaps.
     
    Sterling1 likes this.
  3. Doctor Fine

    Doctor Fine "So Hip It Would Blister Your Brain"

    I took down from the rack and listened to dozens of the high end preamps we had in our shop to see which preamps had the MOST of this very attribute.
    Do they sound "alive and like flesh and blood" and is it in SUPERWIDE TECHNICOLOR 3D?

    The ones that had an immediate edge all had better audio circuit designs.
    Dual mono.
    Toroidal transformers.
    Class A.
    Voiced by world renown engineers like Pass and Curl.

    Same thing went for power amps.
    Class A bias was rare (only a Krell we had could run full class A at significant wattage) but it too had an immediate advantage.
    But toroidal trannies.
    Great caps and resistors (Mundorf and the rest).
    Great circuitry with low feedback needed for low distortion specs.

    I really am more surprised when great designs DON'T knock me out with a great soundstage.
    I sort of expect that is one of the things my dollar is buying as you move up the food chain.

    Anyway.
    I think it really isn't a big mystery.
    At least I feel confident now that I spent a couple weeks going through so many products looking for those exact qualities.
    I agree---those qualities are the cats meow.
     
  4. allied333

    allied333 Audiophile Thread Starter

    Location:
    nowhere
    I think it is the most mysterious mystery of anything audio. Searching the internet about everyone stated moving the speakers around makes the difference. In my case nothing moved, it was purely the amplifier and the difference was huge. It makes no sense to me, but.....
     
  5. pdxway

    pdxway Forum Resident

    Location:
    Oregon, USA
    Hmm, in my living g room, I have two different setups with different preamp and speakers. Both setup could get big stage, way beyond the boundaries of speakers.

    One thing in common is the amps are from Parasound (A21 and A23)....
     
  6. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    Have you ruled out placebo?
     
  7. Doctor Fine

    Doctor Fine "So Hip It Would Blister Your Brain"

    Placebo?
    It explains why I like athletic Blondes with big hooters---right?
    It must simply be placebo.
    And why I like early 60s Rock with great drumming.
    It must just be placebo.
    And why I like being well off because I worked my entire life to get here?
    It must just be placebo.
    PLACEBO?
    What the heck are you even TALKING about?
    Is that the only word in your vocabulary?
    PLACEBO.
    I must learn to understand why my ears are always wrong.
    I must need to be put in a collectivist "re-education center" to understand my own inability to be human and have impressions about what is going on.
    I must understand why "close-minded collectivists parading as scientists will once again find a way to discredit the glory of individual achievement."
    It's all PLACEBO.
    Got it.
     
    dennem, thegage, Sterling1 and 8 others like this.
  8. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    I have experienced different sized soundstages with different brands of tubes of the same type. tubes bring the soundstage like nothing else. I suspect your 333 has "big stage" tubes.
    People that poo-poo the use of tubes in audio call them "special effects" boxes that create a non linear phase response which is responsible for the large stage. Similar to "dynamic enhancers" that do alter the phase.
    Not proven for sure and whatever it is caused by I'll take it.
     
  9. Khorn

    Khorn Dynagrunt Obversarian

    Totally agree but wouldn’t it be nice if components had a mandatory “soundstage” specification?
     
    doctor fuse and bever70 like this.
  10. HenryH

    HenryH Miserable Git

    So many variables; recording, speakers, room & set up, electronics...

    In an ideal scenario, acquiring great soundstaging from an audio system is incredibly satisfying in terms of both width and depth. But in my experience it’s not an easy thing to dial in. On many occasions, I’ve wondered if some folks don’t necessarily understand what this represents, but I do find that a great sounding audio set up always gets soundstage right.
     
    Sterling1 and bever70 like this.
  11. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    Who hurt you?
     
    polchik, _cruster, lobo and 6 others like this.
  12. HIRES_FAN

    HIRES_FAN Forum Resident

    Here are some additional soundstage characteristics you would observe in correctly setup concentric driver speaker designs (from the likes of Technics, TAD, etc), i.e., a deep spooky holographic image where you literally feel like you can reach out and grab the singer with eyes closed...and it can be so enveloping that i often wonder if there are surround speakers active.

    Andrew Jones from Elac is active on facebook and some forums. You can ask him for specifics on the how, if he hasn't covered it in his interviews. As you might know, he has been designing concentric drivers for a long time.

    If nuanced soundstage extravaganza is the main quest, it is hard to beat concentric drivers IME. But, i also look for other characteristics in speakers such as good dynamics, detail retrieval, resolution, clarity, etc (or whatever else one might wanna call it). For the latter, the lower a good quality tweeter is crossed over to a mid driver, the better. IME, forget the full range driver designs and 2 ways if you want speakers that really mean business (in all these areas).
     
    Sterling1 likes this.
  13. Khorn

    Khorn Dynagrunt Obversarian

    Actually my speakers cast such a convincing soundstage that I might jump on the next one heading west.
     
  14. allied333

    allied333 Audiophile Thread Starter

    Location:
    nowhere
    Absolutely ruled out placebo. First, I was not expecting one receiver to be better than the other. Difference was like night and day. No one has a placebo effect on the difference of night and day.
     
  15. Doctor Fine

    Doctor Fine "So Hip It Would Blister Your Brain"

    I was chatting with Bever privately about this very topic.
    I commented that it would really help us audio nuts a lot if the different DACS could be classified.
    Some are very "up front sounding' and front row center.
    Some that I like a lot are much more "far-field" waaaaay back to the rear of the auditorium where you hear the entire orchestra in concert playing as a unit.

    The differences in DACs are profound in my experience.
    Yet those soundfield differences seem to be downplayed if mentioned at all.
    Weird.

    But then again . What ISN"T weird lately?
    If you try to tell certain newcomers to audio about what to look for many times you get attacked for being an "authority."
    So go figure.

    I'm getting a bit tired of it all.
    Perhaps I will quit the forum.
    "Oh no---Doctor---PLEASE don't go."
    Right.
    Who cares.
    I would prefer to enjoy myself and if folks are too busy trying to have pissing contests then I am over and out.
    Does that sound childish?
    Ha!
    I call it reasonable.
    I really DO have other things to do with my life than try to help out on a forum that is becoming infested with bullies.
    Was that over the top?

    Some of you that have been following current discussions on here might know what I refer to.,
    Others can chalk me up to being a crank.
    I don't get paid for working here so it is really moot.
    Working for nothing and then being ATTACKED is really nutty, no?
    Ha!
     
  16. jonwoody

    jonwoody Tragically Unhip

    Location:
    Washington DC
    I've definitely had tubes add more depth to the sound stage before, for me the Gold Lion KT77s in my amp did that. I don't get much lateral soundstage because of my tiny room and nearfieldish listening but depth I do have.
     
    progrocker likes this.
  17. Dillydipper

    Dillydipper Space-Age luddite

    Location:
    Central PA
    Directionality is a real bonus to the audiophile in enjoying what it is he's encountering. We're lucky to have that extra awareness in our arsenal of listening judgements.

    I just came out of a movie theater today for the first time in over a year ( :pineapple: ), and had a really pleasant experience, just enjoying the sound of the room. This is a theater I've been in many times, and they'd just upgraded their sound systems as a part of an overall remodeling project that had started just before the pandemic closed everything. We sat today in a corner we don't typically choose to select, because our normal spot was taken, and seating was still at half-capacity. I'd had limited experience with the upgrade in the first place, maybe three times at best, and that was some time ago.

    What I experienced was, sitting in the back corner of the other side of the auditorium, there was more room behind the last row of seats, which allowed for more rear reflection. We usually took our seats along the back wall of the projection booth, so, less reflective surround experience back then. This was almost like looking at the same thing, from a different angle. The most surprising improvement though, since it was so unexpected was, I was able to "see" the whole soundstage of the room laid-out before me clearer, and you could almost imagine how the audio was emphasized in towards the center of the audience.

    Next time you get the chance to return to your favorite movie theater, take the time to appreciate how well the audio system has been calibrated. Sit there for a few seconds with your eyes closed, and try to appreciate whether you can tell not so much where the speakers are, but where the speakers are actually pointing the sound. See if you can pinpoint how nicely-laid-out the soundstage was intended for the room, instead of looking around to see where the speakers themselves are mounted.
     
  18. allied333

    allied333 Audiophile Thread Starter

    Location:
    nowhere
    After 40 years of experimenting I learn a few items about tube amplifiers. I also was attacked for being an authority. I also believe some attackers must have had an IQ of 100. Challenged their ridiculous comments and they would post many attacks including stating how dumb I was. I stopped posting for a year here and now carefully post info. Many jerks out there. Back to original post.
     
  19. jonwoody

    jonwoody Tragically Unhip

    Location:
    Washington DC
    Doc you make good points and you crack me up sometimes I'd say don't go for sure. ;)
     
    ILovethebassclarinet likes this.
  20. Khorn

    Khorn Dynagrunt Obversarian

    Hell, I know it can be pretty exasperating sometimes but let’s face it, you love it here and I don’t think you’re going anywhere. I can’t imagine the withdrawal. :ignore:
     
  21. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    Im wondering if different Gains arnt at play here.
     
  22. Doctor Fine

    Doctor Fine "So Hip It Would Blister Your Brain"

    OK. Wasn't trolling for validation really.
    But if someone like you is still interested I would miss out by leaving when we have so much to discover together.
    I will try to stay as neutral as possible and just add to discussions.
    Music is calling.
    And I am afraid I have already made all this way too much about ME when the music is way more important.
    ONWARD!
     
  23. Doctor Fine

    Doctor Fine "So Hip It Would Blister Your Brain"

    Gain can influence your opinion.
    Don't fall for the "louder is always better" trick.
    Which it is.
    But once you dial in the difference and guard against being fooled the rest is simply what sounds best in your own particular setup.
     
  24. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    Not easy to do manually though. Its a classic salesman trick though. Look, both amps and 7, but this sounds so much better, but they arnt equally loud.
     
  25. Doctor Fine

    Doctor Fine "So Hip It Would Blister Your Brain"

    Just watch OUT.
    Don't let clowns fool you.
    Sometimes they don't even realize what they are doing to distort perception.
    I worked in HiFi and the managers would train salesmen to cheat.
    I say don't let anybody play you for a fool.

    Be discriminatory.
    In a good way.
    Know what is real and what is foolishness.
    Your setup will then become just so much better for your efforts...
     
    ILovethebassclarinet likes this.
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