The most intense placebo you ever experienced

Negative Ions

Negative Ions Create Positive Vibes »

 

You're probably right. For quite a while now, I've had it just turned up enough to add a little bass reinforcement and that's it. My next set of speakers will be full-range floorstanders and the sub will be gone for good.

 

Love my sub, especially when watching movies, but doesnt mean i dont manage it for critical music playback.

I've only smiled (as opposed to laughing) when i get it right for a great music playback experience

 

Oh, I know what you mean. That really bugs me. The crossover frequency and overall level of the sub has to be low enough that the bass still seems to be coming from the main speakers or it'll drive me nuts.

 

Grills do make a difference objectively of course. Much more than fancy cables and power cords ;-)

How much audibility of course is up to the person and the nature of those grills...

Archimago's Musings: MEASUREMENTS: The Effect of Speaker Grills... »

 

I do hear the effects of lossy compression. A recent example, I got this album from Bandcamp last week: Vespers For A New Dark Age. I downloaded the FLAC version. I listened to it and thought it sounded like lossy. I thought maybe they accidentally uploaded a lossy version as the source file to Bandcamp. So I got the CD from my local library so I could compare. The CD has the exact same sound. The music does have what sounds like intentional production to get a somewhat processed sound. I'm assuming that processing introduced some lossy style artifacts. I ran the CD and Bandcamp download through Traders Little Helper and TLH identified them as 100% likely lossy source. Bummer. But still interesting music.

 

So this girl said I was the BEST you see. I was feeling great!! High as a kite.
Next thing you know she's with some dork. She was a fake!! So I....

 

Absolutely - I've never heard a sub that is seamless with music. I'd rather loose the lowest bass than have this FX-like thunderous low frequency that is almost unnatural anyway. Works for moves, though, where it is supposed to draw attention to itself from time to time.

 

Shame. It's not that hard to dial in a sub to be seamless, but I agree that most sub setups are not so most people haven't heard what it can be like.

 

Lots of people buy (or build) them specifically to set them up to be seamless.

 

When I had my sub, and my Atoms were on stands, I really couldn't get them quite seemless. I fiddled and faddled with placement and x-over settings, but it just wasn't getting it there. When I got my tv and mounted it to the wall, I mounted the speakers as well. I don't know if it was a placebo effect or just the ports closer to the wall, but the sub was all of a sudden seemless and less localisable (I don't care what they say, I can still locate a sub with the crossover set well below 80hz)

 

I suppose it works much better if the speakers are designed to work with a sub but if not, adding any perceivable amountt of bass only skews the overal balance, at least in my very limited experience. I have some small Tannoys just for home cinema (stereo) and even they, with their limited range, usually sound better with music without the sub. I have tried to adjust the sub with music a few times and inevitably get to a point where it is basssically inaudible.

That said, I haven't really spend much time playing with my sub (and half of the time it was off, as it turned out ))) so I may be completely wrong.

 

When it comes to subs, I prefer the less is more approach.

I use a small 75-watt Martin Logan sub in my bedroom to add a little bit of bass, when necessary to my Peachtree/Era D5 bookshelf speakers because it sometimes helps them out a bit. Most bookshelves are not really strong in the bass department and can sometimes benefit from a wee bit of help in the basement. I find that it helps best at low volumes, when the bass can use a small boost.

Although, I use subs, with HT and stereo, I use them as subs for the lower bass frequencies. One of them is even a large single 15" commercial sub. When listening to "normal" music, I never even notice that the subs are even there. There is so much more bass in music today, than thirty years ago. Some times, I find myself expecting more bass and then realizing, there simply is not that much bass in the source that I am listening to.

Mostly, when I am streaming and then a song like Crystallize (the Dubstep version) by Lindsey Stirling comes on and all of a sudden, the whole room resonates will enveloping bass and I realize that I do have sub woofers!



I would normally not equate extra deep bass along with solo violin music, but Lindsey does many magical things and it just works!

What this is telling me is, that I do have my subs properly dialed in. They do not duplicate what the bass drivers in the towers are doing. No flabby sounding bass.

On some modern music, with heavy synth bass, if you do want to fully experience that sound, you really do have to add a sub, even if you do have full range tower speakers.

Even in rock oriented music, that A7's, even though they only play down to about 50-Hz, can handle the bass lines quite nicely. Sure the open lower "E" string, vibrates at 41.5-cycles, but how often does a bass player stand around just hitting the open lower "E" string? Not that much, I would think.

The two biggest mistakes I see that people make, with regard to subs (where they have full range tower speakers in place) is;

1) They use their subs to handle what their woofer is already handling. No need to over lap responsibilities. Except in cases like with bookshelf speakers, where you are legitimately trying to augment the bass. The sub should be relegated to use as a sub woofer and not the primary woofer (in a full range tower system).

2) They turn up the sub's volume too much, trying to give more bass to music that is simply bass light in content. All that does is, give the bass a loud unnatural muddy sound.

People go nuts trying to deal with bass nodes and room acoustic's. I am not saying that they are unimportant, as I agree that they are. It's just that I feel that the observations I have mentioned above are more or a real life issue. People's solutions are not to dial back the bass and to use a sub properly, in the first place. They simply blame their problems on bass nodes in the room, when this is the main issue causing the muddy bass.

 

Related to the OP's topic...it seems sometimes audio enthusiasts just "prefer" a certain architecture. For example, some folks are simply "into" separates (pre/amp, transport/DAC, etc.) I bet there are some who "convince" themselves it sounds better to justify the effort. It is certainly okay to just "like it that way" regardless of if it really sounds better or not. It's similar to mechanical watches...some folks just like having a certain movement built into their watch. Any quality one will be accurate enough, but that is not the point to the connoisseur.

I would never use the "gimme" interconnects that come with gear...they are ugly. I use "better but affordable" ones just in case it makes a sound difference (at least they look cooler)

 

The Magic of Mpingo »

 

A friend in need, a friend indeed

 

I DIY as well, except I have the opposite response. It always sounds horrible at first, until I get used to it (maybe break-in but I'm doubtful.) It's more my mind being broke in

 

Speaker Grills!

 

All the sub talk is interesting. One piece of advice I found useful was "turn the sub down just below where you can hear it." It will still show up for the deep bass but it helped me a lot getting it to integrate without me noticing it or paying attention to the bass because it was overwhelming.

 

I've always used test tones and an SPL meter - and it ends up about there. I never "notice" my subs during music, but if they are off I would notice! I have a small one in my office powered by a small AudioSource amp with my Mirage bookshelf speakers. In my home theater I have a monster dual 15" infinite baffle home build driven by a Vestax 1000W PA amp. Both integrate seamlessly with music.

A properly dialed in sub should not call attention to itself unless the specific soundtrack calls for it. In music some hip-hop and some classical (1812 overture) should highlight the sub - in movies when there's big SPLs for LFE effects they should kill. But in general the sub should not call attention to itself.

If you're listening and the sub is constantly calling attention to itself the setup needs tweaking.

 

I sense they would want it if they heard it done properly- seamless integration with obvious deep bass extension that seems to come from the main speakers- no peaks, gaps or cancellations. It really ain't that easy to do.

 

Your measurements mirror what my ears have told me on countless occasions thank you.
Some speakers I have owned sound better with the grilles off, some sound worse. Fortunately my current speakers sound better with the grilles off because they look way cooler without them

 

It really isn't easy you are correct. Things like automatic room correction / level setup such as Audyssey help a LOT but I don't know how much people use that. It is critical in my basement. In my office it's more of an experience thing; I've been setting up subs for home theater for so long that I know what a well dialed in sub should sound like (or more accurately what it SHOULDN'T sound like).