The Musical "Decline" of Keith Moon

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Jayce, Jul 10, 2009.

  1. Hootsmon

    Hootsmon Forum Resident

    Location:
    clackmannanshire
    I remember stumbling across a programme on the radio about 25 years ago and they were discussing Moon and his health. They had a doctor/surgeon who said that Moon had the liver of a 70-year-old at the time of his death. I'm not sure if he was involved in the autopsy or if knew who was.
    Given how Moon lived his life not really a surprise.
     
  2. 2141

    2141 Forum Resident

    Wow, all I can say is, how times have changed. I actually sort of enjoyed this, but if some celebrity acted like that now, they'd probably get locked up somehow... I guess the '70s really were a wild and tolerant time, in retrospect. Not sure if that's a good or bad thing. :agree:
     
  3. Runicen

    Runicen Forum Resident

    Few celebrities would act like this and OWN it the way someone like Moon did. They'd hang their heads in shame and go, "Oh, that was a low moment for me. I'm sorry."

    Moon would probably be caught on camera half-nude in a gutter, throw a bottle at the person asking him about it, and say, "The ****ers didn't even get my best side!"
     
  4. Jayce

    Jayce Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    USA
    Monkey Moon...
     
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  5. Jayce

    Jayce Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    USA
    And a civilized man in a monkey suit...
     
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  6. S. P. Honeybunch

    S. P. Honeybunch Presidente de Kokomo, Endless Mikelovemoney

    Which other Who songs in 6/8 are we referring to? Ones that are of similar ilk as "Music Must Change"? Maybe Keith not thinking of a proper part to play means that he really didn't like the song or felt that anybody would need to add drums to the song. Listening to the master, to me, it sounds like the song doesn't really need drums. It's more of a vocal oriented track with horn accents and guitar to move the song along. Why doesn't The Beatles "Yesterday" have drums? Would Ringo have added anything with his four piece Ludwig drums?
     
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  7. Jayce

    Jayce Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    USA
    Back to the music. Here is early 1973, and he just absolutely slays. Contrast to 77-78, and, as far as consistency and stamina go, there is no contest.
     
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  8. jwoverho

    jwoverho Licensed Drug Dealer

    Location:
    Mobile, AL USA
    it’s amazing to think that Keith didn’t have a set up at the house and didn’t practice. What if he HAD practiced regularly?

    You’d be hard pressed to find many who displayed more sheer joy of playing than Keith. When he was on there are few more thrilling drummers in rock.
     
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  9. dcd2112

    dcd2112 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI USA
    The outro of Naked Eye is in 6/8. Love Reign O’er Me is in 6/8. They’re All In Love is also in 6/8. I can’t think of any more of their songs that are in 6.
     
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  10. S. P. Honeybunch

    S. P. Honeybunch Presidente de Kokomo, Endless Mikelovemoney

    Thanks. Those other songs are simpler types of songs than "Music Must Change", in which there is a lot going on rhythmically with intricate synth, horn, and guitar parts. "Music Must Change" doesn't feel like a rock 'n roll song like those other songs do and doesn't call for Keith's drumming like those songs do. Keith could have played a similar type of beat that he played in those rhythmically simpler songs, but it wouldn't have served the song in the same way.

    The only thing I can think of Keith playing on "Music Must Change" that would add color, would be him adding drum accents throughout the song, maybe playing some sextuplet and triplet type rhythms on snare drum and toms. Still, he would have to worry about rhythmically stepping on Pete's guitar parts. There really is a lot going on with this song without Keith. Keith adding drums might have helped the song become a bit more interesting, but wouldn't have transformed the song much, as there is already so much going on rhymically with the other instruments.
     
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  11. dcd2112

    dcd2112 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI USA
    I’m a drummer. Music Must Change is a little more jazzy than Love Reign O’er Me, outro of Naked Eye, or They’re All In Love, but the rhythmic feel and groove is the same. Either a drummer feels that or doesn’t. I would argue that Naked Eye would be the most difficult because it changes feel from 4/4 half time to 4/4 double time and then to 6/8. The other songs were only in 6/8.

    Keith’s drinking and drug use impaired him by 1977. He wasn’t able to feel 6/8 in the studio where he also was under great pressure from his band mates and threatened with dismissal from the band because they were impatient and upset that Keith was struggling to play anything on all of Who Are You’s tracks. Keith couldn’t feel the 6/8 and the panic and anxiety coupled with the damage he did to himself rendered him incapable of playing anything besides some cymbal washes and some light snare drum in the last verse on Music Must Change.

    I’m not a drug user or heavy drinker. Back some 38 years ago when I was youngster and not playing drums for very long, I can remember the feeling of jamming in the basement with the guys in my first band and stumbling through songs we were trying to cover and on a couple of ocassions, not being to grasp the correct feel for one song or another. The anxiety that washes over you in a situation like that is palpable.

    Can’t imagine what poor Moonie was going through when he tried to tackle Music Must Change. Can you imagine having Pete, Roger and John pissed off at you???
     
  12. S. P. Honeybunch

    S. P. Honeybunch Presidente de Kokomo, Endless Mikelovemoney

    "Naked Eye" and "Love Reign Over Me" are much more bombastic type of songs with loud guitars that call for a bigger beat. "Music Must Change" is a pretty delicate song in comparison. It's pretty presumptuous to suggest that Moon should have played drums in a similar manner as those songs, when the songs are so different in feel.
     
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  13. dcd2112

    dcd2112 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI USA
    I’m not being presumptuous at all. How a drummer plays one song compared to another is not the issue or the point. I am a musician and a drummer. Do you play an instrument? Have you played in a band? To say I’m being presumptuous because I’m offering a point of view based on the experience of actually playing music with other musicians is just wrong.
    Most of The Who’s songs on Who Are You are in 4/4 time. Moon was entirely capable of playing differently in 4/4 on the equally if not more delicate Love Is Coming Down then playing in 4/4 on New Song, Had Enough, 905, Sister Disco, Trick Of The Light, Guitar And Pen, and Who Are You. All of those songs are in 4/4 and all of them required Moon to play differently to requirements of each specific song.
    Moon could not grasp the pulse of 6/8 time for Music Must Change, where as in years past he could grasp the 6/8 pulse. And I am suggesting that the damage Keith did to himself plus the anxiety of the rest of the band wanting to kick him out because his playing suffered due to his excesses is the culprit. It’s well documented The Who were laying plans to remove him from the band and it’s well documented they threatened him during the WAY sessions because he was playing so badly on everything. Daltry and Entwistle made it clear they wanted him out and Townshend went off on Moon over a meal specifically arranged to address the situation.

    I guess for a better understanding, the December 1979 Chicago gig is out there with Kenny Jones and they played Music Must Change and Kenny Jones had no problem figuring out what to appropriately play.
     
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  14. czeskleba

    czeskleba Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    Well, that contradicts the testimony of the other band members and Glynn Johns, who say Moon attempted to record a part but was unable to do so, and expressed frustration that he was not able. If Moon felt the song didn't need drums he would have said so, not pretended to be unable to play. The latter would be both completely unlike him, as well as a risky thing to do given his precarious position in the band at the time.
     
  15. dcd2112

    dcd2112 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI USA
    Exactly. He simply couldn’t grasp playing in 6/8 when he attempted to track a drum part. And it was because he was in decline. Pete recorded his own footsteps just to have some rhythm on the song. It needed a drum part to drive it, especially in the choruses.

    Most Who fans would consider Jones to be... not on Moon’s level. And yet Jones came up with a drum part for the song. If Townshend didn’t want drums on the song, don’t you think he would have had Jones step away from the kit?
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2018
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  16. Joeinator97

    Joeinator97 Forum Resident

    Location:
    United States
    Just to play devil's advocate, this is a live performance, and, especially with the Who's reputation back in those days, I'm sure they would've wanted the energy of the drums for a live performance, rather than just guitar, bass and synth on stage. Things you can do in the studio, like layer loads of synth tracks and horns and guitars such as on Music Must Change, don't always translate well to the stage. It's possible when they created the song in the studio they didn't think it needed drums but for a live performance they would want the driving presence of drums. Also, as a drummer, I don't see the discrepancy between being able to play a half time 4/4 and a 6/8 pulse. 6/8 can easily be felt as half time 4/4, and Keith Moon could obviously play 4/4, so I never quite understood the talk of him just being unable to feel the pulse of the music.
     
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  17. czeskleba

    czeskleba Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    Minor correction: Pete didn't add his footsteps to the song due to Moon's incapability. They were already there (present in his demo). The intent was for Moon to replace them, but since he could not they left them in.
     
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  18. czeskleba

    czeskleba Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    The thing is, that theory directly contradicts the testimony of the band and the producer. They are clear that they wanted the song to have drums, and that Keith tried and failed to add a part to the track.
     
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  19. dudley07726

    dudley07726 Forum Resident

    Location:
    FLA
    Brilliant
     
  20. S. P. Honeybunch

    S. P. Honeybunch Presidente de Kokomo, Endless Mikelovemoney

    That's good that Keith tried to find a drum part for the song, but that he didn't find one to play doesn't mean that the song needs a drum part. The main issue, though, is that there isn't any other song like "Music Must Change" in The Who's repertoire. In 1979, Pink Floyd replaced Nick Mason for "Mother" because the song called for a feel that Mason didn't have. The drums aren't essential to "Mother", and the band could have pulled the song off just as well without them. No one would accuse Nick Mason of losing his abilities or making his playing suffer just because he didn't play on "Mother".
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2018
  21. S. P. Honeybunch

    S. P. Honeybunch Presidente de Kokomo, Endless Mikelovemoney

    I have commented about drums because I've been playing for over 25 years.

    That's great that Kenny Jones found a part to play for "Music Must Change". That Keith Moon couldn't find a part to play shouldn't be a knock on Keith. Different drummers have different abilities and skills.
     
  22. Diamond Star Halo

    Diamond Star Halo Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vancouver
    If it should have been so easy for Keith to come up with a drum part for Music Must Change, why didn’t Pete come up with one for his demo?

    I’ve heard a lot of Pete’s demos, and he usually plays drums. In the case of Music Must Change, he only tapped his feet. Why? Was he unable to properly communicate (or play) what he heard in his mind?
     
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  23. reb

    reb Money Beats Soul

    Location:
    Long Island
    Pete's demos for Guitar and Pen and Sister Disco don't have any drums. Yet , the finished Who tracks feature Keith Moon on drums.
     
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  24. reb

    reb Money Beats Soul

    Location:
    Long Island
    Which reminds me of this.......:biglaugh:

    ;


    20 second clip- Cow Palace 1973

    '
    :laughup:
     
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  25. Roland Stone

    Roland Stone Offending Member

    Keith Moon was likewise my entry to the Who. In those pre-Internet days, I heard "Won't Get Fooled Again" on the radio and knowing only the band's name, bought the soundtrack to the QUADROPHENIA film.

    I didn't get "Won't Get Fooled Again," but I did get Moon's torrential drumming throughout this album, aided and abetted by John Entwistle's re-mix which emphasized the rhythm section. (Subsequently, the original mix sounds anemic to me.)

    I'd listen to the drums on that album the way other kids listened to Eddie Van Halen's guitar on those early Van Halen records. How was this possible?

    I only recently acquired the "correct" Entwistle mix of this album on CD and thirty-plus years later, I was in Who heaven!
     

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