DCC Archive The number of SACD players worldwide (it's a larger number than you think!)

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by editorpf, Sep 27, 2001.

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  1. editorpf

    editorpf New Member Thread Starter

    The installed base of SACD players has been projected to top 280,000 units by the end of 2001, according to a source of mine in the industry, whom I spoke with at VSAC.

    Year 2002 has estimated sales in excess of 1 million units, says this same source.

    This is not too surprising when you consider the number of DVD-video/SACD combos out there, plus the new generation of very affordable platforms, but these numbers are still higher than many of the speculations that I have heard. It is very good news for those of us who love DSD/SACD.

    It also helps to explain the very significant ramp-up in mastering/production capacity, as well as the new labels signing up with the SACD format.

    If these numbers are accurate, this begins to look like the long-awaited "critical mass" for DSD/SACD....

    david
     
  2. Unknown

    Unknown Guest

    I priced that bottom-end Sony SACD changer a couple of weeks ago for $315. I'd love to try one, but here's the deal:

    -I'd prefer not to buy Sony hardware (waiting on a Rotel, NAD, or Marantz to step up)

    -I'd prefer not to have a changer (why pay for multidisc capabilities I don't want or need?)

    -Two months after I buy something, I don't want new functionality introduced with hardware that can't be upgraded

    -I really want a player that can play any small shiny disc I throw at it (CD, SACD, DVD-A, DVD-Video, CDR, CDRW, HDCD)

    -How about digital out?
     
  3. Ben

    Ben New Member

    Location:
    Phoenix, Arizona
    And - don't forget...you have over 100 discs to choose from....gosh!

    Ben ;)
     
  4. Sergio Ruz

    Sergio Ruz Forum Resident

    Good news, but how come only Sony in the U.S. and Japan are pushing SACD?
    Seems Sony branches in the rest of the world doesn't even know that the format exists! (Certain local offices have never heard of Minidisc either... it's more laughable than pathetic to see their promo kits touting their boomboxes as "high end electronics".) Hope to be soon in Hong Kong, maybe I'll take the plunge to SACD.
     
  5. GregM

    GregM The expanding man

    Location:
    Bay Area, CA
    Thanks David, and great to see ya here. The numbers are indicative of great things to come for SACD. Perfect format for DCC and Steve Hoffman. . .hope they decide to make use of it to its fullest!
     
  6. Holy Zoo

    Holy Zoo Gort (Retired) :-)

    Location:
    Santa Cruz
    [ September 28, 2001: Message edited by: Holy Zoo ]
     
  7. Unknown

    Unknown Guest

    Holy Zoo -- thanks for your post. Good info and ideas.

    I think I've asked this before, but here goes again: is there a single site on the 'net that keeps track of the latest SACD hardware (regardless of manufacturer)? It would be *extremely* useful to see who's coming out with what when.

    Am I the only one sick of keeping track of boxes and manuals for audio goods? :p

    You're right: I'm scared of Apex.

    I'd like digital out at least for the regular CD stream, allowing the option of an outboard DAC. Is this available?
     
  8. Unknown

    Unknown Guest

    I am fortunate enough to own a Sony SCD-1 and yes there is digital out for the 16-bit PCM data stream... (BTW, on the SCD-1 this is defeatable, and it makes a major difference in sound quality if your system is sufficiently resolving. I am convinced that reviewers who have been only mildly impressed with the SCD-1's playback of normal CDs have missed this...)

    Re. the availability of SACD titles: I think this will be assured not only by the growth in the player market but by the inherent superiority of DSD encoding over anything else. As recording and mastering equipment comes online, more and more artists and producers will insist on recording DSD, even when mastering to CD or vinyl. In addition, the record companies would be happy to have something premium to sell us that cannot be ripped digitally to a computer...
     
  9. FabFourFan

    FabFourFan Senior Member

    Location:
    Philadelphia
    As wonderful as SACD is, these estimates seem to be nonsense masquerading behind hype.

    This posting is not intended to knock SACD, but realistically, where are all these SACD owners?

    -----

    ... Let's look back ... way back ... to 1984, when the RIAA estimated that there would be _200,000_ *CD* players sold that year. (That's 70% of 280,000.)

    Well, in 1984, there were at least TEN people that I worked with who had CD players and each of them had several or more CDs.

    Therefore, I should expect today to be able to find about 7 people that I work with who have SACD players, right? Worth a try, right?

    Well, here we are in 2001, and NOT ONE PERSON that I work with owns an SACD player (or a DVD-Audio player, for that matter.)

    In fact, nobody I work with even CARES about SACD or DVD-A. They have no complaints about how their CDs sound. FOR HOFFMAN'S SAKE, they think that even paying extra for "Limited Edition Gold CDs" is foolish and extreme! The last piece of 'audio' equipment they bought was a DVD player, of course, and they were all delighted with them. No kidding.

    Be honest, isn't it the same where you work?

    -----

    As for hitting 1 million units next year, well, consider DVD. DVD player sales finally totaled 1 million a couple of years ago, and at that time there were already large and visible DVD displays in the video stores.

    In other words, if and when a million people are looking for SACDs, you will see the record business respond with displays and ads and all the other signs of 'good business.' This is not rocket science.

    But up until this point in time, while hanging out at Tower, I have never even SEEN another person looking at the discs the SACD/DVD-A display. Golly, in 1984 the CD racks attracted fewer shoppers than the LP racks, but you could see and meet people looking and buying...

    -----

    So, it sure doesn't look like 280,000 this year. And so I sure don't see the big jump to 1,000,000 next year.

    The bottom line is, no matter how wonderful SACDs sound, I sure don't appreciate it when I'm being lied to.
     
  10. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    I beg to differ. Many artists don't care much about sound quality as it is - why would they care any more about DSD/SACD? If anything, I can see a lot of people saying "oh, yeah, I need DSD mastering!" only to have it ruined by NR and overly bright EQ. It's happened before (it's happening today)...
     
  11. GregM

    GregM The expanding man

    Location:
    Bay Area, CA
    Originally posted by Luke Pacholski:
    >> I beg to differ. Many artists don't care much about sound quality as it is - why would they care any more about DSD/SACD? <<

    If given a choice, artists (according to you) will not go with a superior digital technology? Hmmm. . .

    >> If anything, I can see a lot of people saying "oh, yeah, I need DSD mastering!" only to have it ruined by NR and overly bright EQ. It's happened before (it's happening today)... <<

    These are arguments against noise reduction and poor EQ'ing, not against DSD.
     
  12. Sckott

    Sckott Hand Tighten Only.

    Location:
    South Plymouth, Ma
    There are many more things that people can do to improve the sound of a CD, but it's just not perfected there, yet we're supposed to throw ourselves at SACD.

    I'm not sure if this is what Luke is saying, but if it is, I agree: Wanna impress me? Get the CD mastering game right. I'll be spending some crazy audio money then. I know this is a generalization, but there's too much of the modern (re)mastering that's murdering music, and I include Sony in this. It's the simple things we need to perfect. I'll agree some DSD masterings are impressive, but there's a lot more to be done. It just may happen in time. The times they are a changin'.
     
  13. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Pretty much. Most artists just don't care about sound quality that much. If they did we'd be hearing a lot more great sounding CDs.

    The point is that if the capabilities of CD are not being maximized, what makes you think a "superior" format will suddenly be important to people? Pete Townshend is quite happy with Jon Astley's over the top NR - why would he have any interest in DSD/SACD?
     
  14. GregM

    GregM The expanding man

    Location:
    Bay Area, CA
    I hear ya Luke, and it is depressing and dismal to listen to much of the work done these days. My opinion is that engineers these days have too much technological rope with which to hang themselves. I spend some time wishing we could go back 40 years because it seemed like recording/mixing techniques were better back then.

    Let's look at all the systems and flavors of PCM for tape-to-digital transfers alone. Sonic solutions, K2, K2 digital, HDCD/Pacific Microsonics, gain 2, hyper magnum yada yada, 20-bit, 24-bit, systems like SBM, XRCD, etc. etc. And none of it can accomplish what a Sonoma DSD system can. I find the attitude that "we might as well stick to CD even though SACD is better" to be defeatist. Maybe 1 or 2 SACDs out of a dozen will not sound better than the CD version (though I think they all sound significantly better than PCM counterparts), but this is no excuse to argue against progress. And by saying there's no point in going to DSD, that's exactly what you're arguing IMO. Who knows, maybe working with DSD will even convince some of these guys that NR is not the answer.

    [ October 01, 2001: Message edited by: GregM ]
     
  15. FabFourFan

    FabFourFan Senior Member

    Location:
    Philadelphia
    D'oh! I flipped my denumerators! :)

    Just for the record (no pun intended!), I should have been looking for FOURTEEN people with SACD players, not just seven.
     
  16. wes

    wes Senior Member

    Please note that Pete Townshend is nearly def.

    :) -Wes
     
  17. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Actually, I don't think that's the case. Pete has hearing problems, but I don't think they necessarily cause him a *loss* of hearing. Rather, he has pains when he hears loud noises.

    But, to get back to the original point - why would a deaf musician care about SACD anyway?
     
  18. Unknown

    Unknown Guest

    Is this a koan?
     
  19. Sergio Ruz

    Sergio Ruz Forum Resident

    IMO, the strategies for pushing both SACD and DVD-A into the public consciousness have so far been a big failure. Sony has aimed for the audiophile set, but has yet to impress Joe Public (when has Stereophile or The Absolute Sound been invoked by the unconverted?).
    Warner has aimed for the home theater crowd, who just shrug and say "What's a DVD without a movie but an overpriced CD, anyway?"
    Maybe one or both formats will survive, but until prices drop, I just don't see a massive surge in popularity.
    Right now, the best case scenario is for SACD becoming a cult format (such as Minidisc, or laserdisc in its time).
    As for DVD-A, I wouldn't be surprised if AOLTW pulls the plug if the expected Christmas sales don't meet expectations.
     
  20. BradOlson

    BradOlson Country/Christian Music Maven

    8-track tapes still have a cult following as 8 Track Heaven shows.

    [ October 07, 2001: Message edited by: Bradley Olson ]
     
  21. Sckott

    Sckott Hand Tighten Only.

    Location:
    South Plymouth, Ma
    God, there are so, so many things I've heard lately that sound SO incredible that come from older technology, I'm more than convinced that we've left the garden, big time. Yes, SACD and DVD-A is quite enjoyable and IS promising, but we've killed the cookie dough long before we've turned on the oven in this case.
     
  22. Paul L.

    Paul L. New Member

    Location:
    Earth
    The CD did not become the overwhelmingly successful format it is because of superior sound quality, but because of convenience: Smaller than an LP, with the ability to get to any song almost instantly, no hassle with tonearms, needles, and flipping sides every 20 mins. No wear each time it's played.
    The SACD does not improve on the CD in any area except sound quality. And superior sound quality is important to only a relatively small percentage of the public.
    SACD is not at all an easy thing to market. Most people are happy with the sound of MP3 files, after all. Even so, I believe SACD will indeed eventually become extremely popular, but it will sneak in through hybrid discs. Since a hybrid disc can play on either CD or SACD players, if the price is the same, there is nothing to lose by anyone buying it, even if he doesn't have an SACD machine and doesn't think he ever will. And with Sony incorporating SACD in their DVD machines, there will soon be quite a base of SACD machines out there that were actually purchased mostly for their DVD aspects.
    Both hardware and software has to be available in the stores and only in the last weeks have SACD machines gotten inexpensive. There is a huge backlog of titles waiting to be manufactured, and that will be fixed fairly soon with more factories gearing up. You may remember that CDs weren't made in the USA at first--it took a year or two before we had our manufacturing set up properly.
    So, don't expect a CD revolution for SACD. It'll be more subtle with both CD and SACD existing together on the same disc for a long time, then eventually CD withering away perhaps, or maybe not. There's room for both on one disc, so it doesn't really matter.
     
  23. rodney sherman

    rodney sherman Forum Resident

    Location:
    de soto, kansas
    Give you all a thumbs up!i work at best buy here in Overland park,KS.Sacd is doing a good job of selling its self along with dvd-a.We ran out of dvd-a titles a couple of times.so its selling.OK!!!!! I love dvd-a and I've got the sacd player on its way.I,ll ask again.Does someone out there have a multi channal problem? I,d like for someone to tell me were I can get a 5.1 ch switch box.Dvd-a and sacd can not share one multi channal input.I'm shure one exists. :confused: :confused:
     
  24. christopher

    christopher Forum Neurotic

     
  25. GregM

    GregM The expanding man

    Location:
    Bay Area, CA
    I believe this type of switching is handled by Meitner's? Switchman II? Pls correct me if I'm wrong.
     
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