The "Possibly Unplayed"/Vinyl Record Spindle Trail Myth

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by dgsinner, Aug 2, 2009.

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  1. dgsinner

    dgsinner New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Far East
    You know how it goes.

    The "Possibly unplayed" or "played only twice" ruse in descriptions of vinyl records for sale, based on the presence or absence of spindle trails.

    I don't know when this started, but I don't remember ever seeing it or hearing in the 1970s, 1980s or 1990s (admittedly I didn't return to vinyl collecting until around 1996 after a 7-8 year hiatus).

    It's a truly dumb-as-hell notion -- that a collectible, great vinyl record that is opened is 'unplayed.' Why would someone (apparently thousands and thousands of individuals if online sales descriptions are to be believed), especially a young person, buy a great rock record and never play it? The answer: they wouldn't.

    Maybe a few, more monied collectors bought spares in the day, but my guess is that was a small minority -- in sheer contradiction to the number of highly desirable records for sale by sellers who use that deceptive bit of twaddle to move their wares.

    Really, the only way to know the approximate number of plays a record has had is if you bought it new yourself. If you bought the record used, you can relay what that seller said about it.

    Before I entered my mid-thirties (and had a bit more disposable income), I bought a spare once -- in 1978. That one remained unplayed (that is, until someone stole it. Hope they played it -- great record).

    But what isn't a guess is that a record with two spindle marks was played two times. Or that a record with no spindle marks was never played. Pure, disingenuous BS.

    I started buying LPs in earnest in 1971, played all my records on a regular basis and when I sold that particular collection in 1985 I doubt there were spindle marks on any of that several-hundred-lp batch. Why? Because I knew how to place a record on the turntable without dragging the label all over the spindle. Knew how even as a pre-teen at 11 years old.

    And if I tried to peddle the line that I never played any of the LPs in that collection, I can't imagine what the buyer would have said or thought of me. It wouldn't have been good and I'll bet it would have come back to me.

    I say this because I see some SH forum members utilizing this dimwit bit of sales chicanery in their sales descriptions.

    My advice? Stop it. Unless you are a 20-something newbie to vinyl records, you erode your credibility when you continue this ridiculous bit of sales hogwash, especially on this forum. You can just say, "looks new" or "looks near mint" or "looks unplayed". Then give it a play grade to be sure.

    Geez people -- on this forum you should know better.

    Rant over.

    Dale
     
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  2. VeeFan64

    VeeFan64 A 60s Music Kind of Guy

    Location:
    Philadelphia, PA
    Well, a possibility is that it was a never sealed in the first place album, although that would only be for 50s, 60s, (and a few) 70s records.
     
  3. John Buchanan

    John Buchanan I'm just a headphone kind of fellow. Stax Sigma

    Agreed - I don't think I ever had a spindle mark on any of my records and they were all well played by me only.
     
  4. dgsinner

    dgsinner New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Far East
    Yes, I know. UK albums, possibly most all European albums were never sealed. Germany started shrink wrapping LPs specifically for sale at US military bases in the mid-to-late 60s...But that's not what we're talking about--we're talking about calling an LP with no spindle marks "unplayed".

    Unless you bought it yourself all you can do is report what the seller you bought it from said or give it a visual grade and a play grade, or both. That's the point I'm trying to make.

    Calling it 'possibly unplayed' is an assertion you cannot reasonably make, especially on a visual inspection alone.

    Dale
     
  5. Maggie

    Maggie like a walking, talking art show

    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    This is among the least of the stupid and disingenuous things vinyl resellers claim.
     
  6. dgsinner

    dgsinner New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Far East
    Examples please. I think "possibly unplayed" is among the more egregious bits of hype from resellers who, ostensibly, try to pass themselves as reasonable. I see "possibly unplayed" more often than not on lengthier, detailed descriptions, not the more obviously effusive, full of !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!-types of sales pitches.

    Dale
     
  7. TLMusic

    TLMusic Musician & record collector

    I can see how the absence of spindle marks might indicate that a record was cared for. It would be logical to think that a record with few spindle marks will be in better condition than a record with deep marks ground into the label. But, playback of records can be very illogical.

    There are collectors that buy vintage records merely as artifacts--with no intention of playing them. Rare variations of the labels and jacket are perceived as beauty unto themselves. How else could you explain things like people paying over $1000 for a Led Zep I with turquoise lettering on the cover? ...when the same record with the orange lettering might be $150. Does the turquoise lettering improve the sound that much? (it could indicate a slightly earlier copy made from fresher metal parts, and I can wrap my head around how that may make the sound better) Anyway, those people may prize an undamaged label, since the visual aspect is what causes them to value it highly.

    But does a lack of spindle marks indicate a record is definitely unplayed?

    No way!

    P.S. I am reminded of a dealer on Ebay who always puts "uNpLaYeD!" in the auction title. Then, if you read further into the 750 word description, you will find that the record "has been played 2-3 times, at most!":rolleyes:
     
  8. Jan

    Jan New Member

    Location:
    Columbus OH 43210
    I don't want to get in another war with England, but it seems to me that it is the Britons who shamelessly use this spindle mark thing to the extreme.
     
  9. johnny33

    johnny33 New Member

    Location:
    usa
    I have to agree. Just because a record has two or three spindle marks does not a 2 or 3 played lp make. It is entirely and most likely possible that the owner simply missed the hole three or four times after successfully hitting the mark tens of times. Therefor, spindle marks tell you nothing about the lps actual playing condition. Play or stay away is my motto on eBay and here. I try and stick with this.

    Much more important is what the vinyl says. Does it have that greying that evidences groove wear? ...etc.

    Gotta play it man.. Got to.
     
  10. Maggie

    Maggie like a walking, talking art show

    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    "Near Mint!" comes to mind. As does RARE PROMO (for anything with a gash in the sleeve).
     
  11. TLMusic

    TLMusic Musician & record collector

    Oh no, this has not been my experience. I buy many records from England, and the English sellers I encounter don't reference spindle marks any more than sellers from other countries.

    I've bought from dealers in the US, Denmark, Germany, Switzerland, Italy and Canada--all of them citing "lack of spindle marks" as a big selling point.
     
  12. TLMusic

    TLMusic Musician & record collector

    Near Mint is IMHO by far the most abused description. The dirtiest and most scratched records ever to be delivered to my doorstep were described as "Near Mint" in ebay, discogs and musicstack ads.

    On average, "Excellent" records I receive are typically in far better condition than the "Near Mint" ones.
     
  13. william shears

    william shears Senior Member

    Location:
    new zealand
    The best visual clue to the played/unplayed status of a record I find is the inner bag. I'v found many records were it was quite clear that the record had never been out of its bag. Folded corners, crisp from compression and bleaching/fading where the overlap has been for 20-40 years. Down here a lot of the older records were bagged with poly innersleeves. There is a very distinctive look and feel to a record that has been stored unopened for many years. There is subtle 'feel' to the way the record is released from the bag. I come across them all the time.
     
  14. TLMusic

    TLMusic Musician & record collector

    I agree that a nice inner is an excellent clue that a record might sound good.

    But, certainly a record could be very carefully removed from a poly inner and played many times without apparent visual damage.
     
  15. PBo

    PBo Forum Resident

    Location:
    New England
    I agree. It obviously doesn't mean a record wasn't played, but it is often a good indicator of how well a record was cared for. When buying second hand vinyl, I find it's a useful tool to check the spindle for marks in the absence of a turntable to sample playback on.
     
  16. StirBlues

    StirBlues Forum Resident

    Location:
    Baltimore, MD
    Jeez Dale, you carry on like there are ethics in business!

    Seriously though, great post, there needs to be an end to such ******** in the world of economics; 99% of descriptions of any commercial venture (real-estate, consumer products, second hand products, cars, etc) are crap, its infuriating :thumbsdn:
     
  17. johnny33

    johnny33 New Member

    Location:
    usa
    Another clue but not definitive to being in great shape is the cover itself. Mint covers are at least a sign that the owner cared about the item enough not to store it crazy and may have cared enough about the lp also.
     
  18. DrJ

    DrJ Senior Member

    Location:
    Davis, CA, USA
    Yeah it's lame for people to say this but we all know people lie like rugs when it comes to vinyl sales...not sure what can really be done about it. I trust nobody.
     
  19. Dubmart

    Dubmart Senior Member

    Location:
    Bristol, England
    Although spindle marks are relevant to whether the record has been handled carefully and cared for they do not indicate whether the record has been played, or how often.

    With regard to unplayed records, I have hundreds in my collection, I recently paid £130 for an LP from a seller I trust absolutely, he had played the first track on each side to confirm it's sound, he said it was unplayed when he got it and I don't doubt it.

    This was a 35 year old LP, but he'd got it from a batch of unsold shop stock and from experience old, unplayed, shop stock from the sixties, seventies and eighties still turns up. I've seen boxes of forty year old records, not opened since they were shipped, so unplayed can be a valid description, but only if the seller has the provenance and they are totally honest and reliable.

    As an aside I find a lot of vinyl from the last twenty years looks worse brand new than much older used vinyl from previous decades.:(
     
  20. dgsinner

    dgsinner New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Far East
    It's good clue, yes, but I have plenty of records I bought used with pretty worn covers but beautiful vinyl inside. Those are the kinds of records that probably only got played a few times then got shelved, stored, moved -- without cover protection. So the covers wore but the vinyl didn't.

    Dale
     
  21. dgsinner

    dgsinner New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Far East
    You're right. It does happen, but it takes valid history, credibility, etc. I've bought a few like that and I believe the records were probably never played till I got my hands on them. But the sellers didn't try the 'spindle' line on me, for which I am thankful. Had I heard it, I'd have probably passed on the purchase.

    Dale
     
  22. dgsinner

    dgsinner New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Far East
    !!!!!!!!!!!!

    Mind if I come down for a visit?

    No, you're right though...I've come across a few of those. Would love to do some shopping where I might come across them all the time. Been meaning to visit NZ one of these days...:sigh:

    Dale
     
  23. eddiel

    eddiel Senior Member

    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    My experience shows that spindle marks on the label do not give the whole story.

    I once bought a Sinatra grey label pressing that was described as virtually mint.

    An it was to look at. Not one mark on the vinyl (NOT ONE!) no marks on the label either. Played it and it was unlistenable. I'm not sure if it was a bad pressing or had been played so much that the grooves were just worn out. Looking at the vinyl again I could see it looked greyish. I ran my finger tips across the vinyl it was so smooth like it had been sanded down.

    The seller refunded me but even she was perplexed as it looked to be in perfect condition.

    Judging by the closing prices most people don't seem to be fazed. I'm actually thinking of padding out my auctions for lps so I can achieve £100+ closing prices!

    I have come across some lps that were virtually unplayed but they are few and far in between. In my case the lps I bought were owned by an obsessive lp fan who taped every lp he bought and listened to the tapes. He generally played the lps once or twice to tape it and that is it. Of course you need to take these sorts of claims with a grain of salt but the condition and sound backed up the claim.

    Eddie
     
  24. william shears

    william shears Senior Member

    Location:
    new zealand
    No-one said anything about the records being any good!;) I buy quite a bit of easy-listening and foreign language records so it's mostly 'new' old pressings of that stuff I come across. But come on down, we'd love to see you:thumbsup::)
     
  25. krlpuretone

    krlpuretone Forum Resident

    Location:
    Grantham, NH
    Spindle marks are not indicative of play; but rather how warm the vinyl was from the stamper when the labels are applied.
     
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