The results of the "How do you rate Pink Floyd's albums" threads!

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Johnny Reb, Jan 17, 2018.

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  1. Johnny Reb

    Johnny Reb Résident du forum Thread Starter

    Location:
    MA
    Well, over eight months ago we started with The Piper at the Gates of Dawn... It's been a fun ride since then getting to discuss these with you guys and - it seems - to get some nicely accurate scores on the consensus of what the ratings are of the Floyd albums. Oh, and it's been a lot of work! :laugh: Now here are the results... All in all, the series got an absolutely whopping 12,002 total votes.

    Now, just because this thread is a conclusion doesn't mean the series is over: if (hopefully when!) a new eligible album is released, I'll follow with a new poll. Also, in about a year or so I'll update the scores again to get more accurate results - although change will probably only be minimal. I'd encourage anyone just now finding this or finding this in the future to vote and to post in the threads so as to get more votes - and it'll keep the threads from getting locked.

    The method I used on the polls was originally developed by member mrjinks to rate Paul McCartney's albums; after a few tweaks to make it a little better (in my opinion), that was what we used. It got some criticism - especially whilst rating the solo albums - but I think the results are as accurate as is possible, and it was and is a better idea to use the same criteria than try to compare apples and oranges.

    First, as always, the standard chronological format of the final results - to three decimal places this time for more accuracy:
    Pink Floyd:
    The Piper at the Gates of Dawn. Currently 682 people have voted, with an average of 4.239.
    A Saucerful of Secrets. Currently 388 people have voted, with an average of 3.804.
    More. Currently 333 people have voted, with an average of 3.3604.
    Ummagumma. Currently 479 people have voted, with an average of 3.098.
    Atom Heart Mother. Currently 513 people have voted, with an average of 3.743.
    Meddle. Currently 598 people have voted, with an average of 4.692.
    Obscured by Clouds. Currently 473 people have voted, with an average of 3.861.
    The Dark Side of the Moon. Currently 657 people have voted, with an average of 4.752.
    Wish You Were Here. Currently 798 people have voted, with an average of 4.768.
    Animals. Currently 767 people have voted, with an average of 4.612.
    The Wall. Currently 931 people have voted, with an average of 4.014.
    The Final Cut. Currently 733 people have voted, with an average of 3.079.
    A Momentary Lapse of Reason. Currently 489 people have voted, with an average of 2.955.
    Delicate Sound of Thunder. Currently 280 people have voted, with an average of 2.889.
    The Division Bell. Currently 520 people have voted, with an average of 3.294.
    Pulse. Currently 372 people have voted, with an average of 3.3602.
    Is There Anybody Out There? The Wall Live 1980-81. Currently 266 people have voted, with an average of 3.673.
    The Endless River. Currently 492 people have voted, with an average of 2.518.

    Syd Barrett:
    The Madcap Laughs. Currently 247 people have voted, with an average of 3.830.
    Barrett. Currently 174 people have voted, with an average of 3.816.
    Opel. Currently 100 people have voted, with an average of 3.400.

    Nick Mason:
    Fictitious Sports. Currently 70 people have voted, with an average of 2.600.

    David Gilmour:
    David Gilmour. Currently 250 people have voted, with an average of 3.848.
    About Face. Currently 126 people have voted, with an average of 3.333.
    On An Island. Currently 165 people have voted, with an average of 3.442.
    Rattle That Lock. Currently 142 people have voted, with an average of 3.275.

    Richard Wright:
    Wet Dream. Currently 78 people have voted, with an average of 3.436.
    Broken China. Currently 40 people have voted, with an average of 3.250.

    Roger Waters:
    The Pros and Cons of Hitch Hiking. Currently 243 people have voted, with an average of 3.247.
    Radio K.A.O.S.. Currently 157 people have voted, with an average of 2.943.
    Amused to Death. Currently 187 people have voted, with an average of 3.749.
    Is This the Life We Really Want?. Currently 183 people have voted, with an average of 3.705.

    Bonus polls:
    Zee: Identity. Currently 24 people have voted, with an average of 2.167.
    Roger Waters & Ron Geesin: Music from The Body. Currently 45 people have voted, with an average of 2.422.


    And now... what you've all been waiting for... The final rankings!
    1. Wish You Were Here: 4.768
    2. The Dark Side of the Moon: 4.752
    3. Meddle: 4.692
    4. Animals: 4.612
    5. The Piper at the Gates of Dawn: 4.239
    6. The Wall: 4.014
    7. Obscured by Clouds: 3.861
    8. David Gilmour - David Gilmour: 3.848
    9. Syd Barrett - The Madcap Laughs: 3.830
    10. Syd Barrett - Barrett: 3.816
    11. A Saucerful of Secrets: 3.804
    12. Roger Waters - Amused to Death: 3.749
    13. Atom Heart Mother: 3.743
    14. Roger Waters - Is This the Life We Really Want?: 3.705
    15. Is There Anybody Out There?: 3.673
    16. David Gilmour - On An Island: 3.442
    17. Richard Wright - Wet Dream: 3.436
    18. Syd Barrett - Opel: 3.400
    19. More: 3.3604
    20. Pulse: 3.3602
    21. David Gilmour - About Face: 3.333
    22. The Division Bell: 3.294
    23. David Gilmour - Rattle That Lock: 3.275
    24. Richard Wright - Broken China: 3.250
    25. Roger Waters - The Pros and Cons of Hitch Hiking: 3.247
    26. Ummagumma: 3.098
    27. The Final Cut: 3.079
    28. A Momentary Lapse of Reason: 2.955
    29. Roger Waters - Radio K.A.O.S.: 2.943
    30. Delicate Sound of Thunder: 2.889
    31. Nick Mason - Fictitious Sports*: 2.600
    32. The Endless River: 2.518
    33. Roger Waters & Ron Geesin - Music from The Body*: 2.422
    34. Zee - Identity*: 2.167

    1. Wish You Were Here: 4.768
    2. The Dark Side of the Moon: 4.752
    3. Meddle: 4.692
    4. Animals: 4.612
    5. The Piper at the Gates of Dawn: 4.239
    6. The Wall: 4.014
    7. Obscured by Clouds: 3.861
    8. A Saucerful of Secrets: 3.804
    9. Atom Heart Mother: 3.743
    10. Is There Anybody Out There?: 3.673
    11. More: 3.3604
    12. Pulse: 3.3602
    13. The Division Bell: 3.294
    14. Ummagumma: 3.098
    15. The Final Cut: 3.079
    16. A Momentary Lapse of Reason: 2.955
    17. Delicate Sound of Thunder: 2.889
    18. The Endless River: 2.518

    1. David Gilmour - David Gilmour: 3.848
    2. Syd Barrett - The Madcap Laughs: 3.830
    3. Syd Barrett - Barrett: 3.816
    4. Roger Waters - Amused to Death: 3.749
    5. Roger Waters - Is This the Life We Really Want?: 3.705
    6. David Gilmour - On An Island: 3.442
    7. Richard Wright - Wet Dream: 3.436
    8. Syd Barrett - Opel: 3.400
    9. David Gilmour - About Face: 3.333
    10. David Gilmour - Rattle That Lock: 3.275
    11. Richard Wright - Broken China: 3.250
    12. Roger Waters - The Pros and Cons of Hitch Hiking: 3.247
    13. Roger Waters - Radio K.A.O.S.: 2.943
    14. Nick Mason - Fictitious Sports*: 2.600
    15. Roger Waters & Ron Geesin - Music from The Body*: 2.422
    16. Zee - Identity*: 2.167

    *Because of the somewhat limited involvement of Floyd members in these albums, the results may be somewhat skewed one way or another.

    /\ Check out how close Pulse and More are! :agree:


    Now for a few random stats that I came up with... :laugh:
    • The most voted-for options were:
    1. "Clearly one of their best works" for Wish You Were Here: 690 votes.
    2. the same for Animals: 583 votes.
    3. ditto for Meddle: 455 votes.
    4. and ditto again for The Wall: 441 votes.

    • The least voted-for options were:
    1. "Clearly one of their best works" for Music from The Body: 1 vote.
    2. "Clearly one of their best works" for Identity: 1 vote.
    3. "Clearly one of their worst works" for Meddle: 2 votes.
    4. "Lower-tier Floyd" for Identity: 2 votes.
    5. "Lower-tier Floyd" for Meddle: 4 votes.

    • The average score for an album was 3.505. The average number of votes per album was 353. The average number of votes for band albums was 543.
    • The 18 band albums together got a total of 9,771 votes, while the 16 solo albums together got a total of 2,231 votes.
    • Whilst tallying the scores of the band albums (weekly when we were doing them, monthly later), not once did a single album not get new vote(s) since the previous update!
    • The album with the most votes was (unsurprisingly) The Wall with 931. The album with the least was Zee's Identity with 24. The band album with the least votes was Is There Anybody Out There? with 266.
    • The only album to receive triple digits on every poll option was the highly divisive The Final Cut. Indeed, it got 130< on each option!

    Now for something different. Forum member @Zeki PM'd me an interesting idea about something he calls "familiarity scoring". I'll quote a bit of what he said here (hope he doesn't mind!): "...say The Wall has 800 votes vs 300 votes for The Endless River. I'm suggesting that those extra 500 votes (167% more) should translate into a factor of....something." This is an interesting idea... The premise - as I see it - is that if a popular album was less familiar, it would score higher among those who are devoted to the band. In other words, it factors out the trolls. Basically, a troll is much more likely to pop into a poll of The Wall than one of Pulse. This sort of takes that into account. These results are NOT intended to replace the actual results, they are just an alternate way of looking at the data!

    I'm only going to do this with the band albums, because the solo albums received less votes and would skew the average much. The benchmark - average number of votes in a poll - was 543. Using Piper as an example: it has 682 votes currently; 139 above the benchmark. Each 100 votes over the benchmark gets a 5% boost (he suggested 10% at first, but mentioned it could be too extreme, and I think it was). That means an album with 643 votes gets its score multiplied by 1.05 in this system. Piper has 139 votes over; I divide that by 20 and use that number (6.95) as the decimal. Therefore, Piper's score of 4.239 is multiplied by 1.0695 to get a 4.534. Following me?

    The scores under this system:
    1. Wish You Were Here: 5.000*
    2. The Dark Side of the Moon: 5.000*
    3. Animals: 5.000* +1
    4. Meddle: 4.821 -1
    5. The Wall: 4.793 +1
    6. The Piper at the Gates of Dawn: 4.534 -1
    7. Obscured by Clouds: 3.861
    8. A Saucerful of Secrets: 3.804
    9. Atom Heart Mother: 3.743
    10. Is There Anybody Out There?: 3.673
    11. The Final Cut: 3.372 +4
    12. More: 3.3604 -1
    13. Pulse: 3.3602 -1
    14. The Division Bell: 3.294 -1
    15. Ummagumma: 3.098 -1
    16. A Momentary Lapse of Reason: 2.955
    17. Delicate Sound of Thunder: 2.889
    18. The Endless River: 2.518

    * these ones went over the maximum perfect 5.000; perhaps this means the 5% factor is too much. They actually got (in order): 5.30, 5.28, and 5.22.


    ****************************************
    Well, that's all I've got folks. Thanks for voting and participating, it's been fun. Now I'd love to hear your thoughts on the results! :wave:
     
  2. PretzelLogic

    PretzelLogic Feeling duped by MoFi? You probably deserve it.

    Location:
    London, England
    I'm still certain that The Endless River has not yet had its time. It's gonna take a few years before folks finally understand how good it is.
     
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  3. troggy

    troggy Papa-Oom-Mow-Mow

    Location:
    Benton, Illinois
    It also factors out people who are mostly familiar with the band's better known material. I wouldn't necessarily call them trolls.

    I also wouldn't assume the less familiar folks drag down the ratings of the stuff they DO vote on. It's even possible the opposite is true. You may get a lot of people just dropping in to rate DSOTM five stars because they love that one and don't care or know about a lot of the other albums.
     
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  4. wileycoyote

    wileycoyote Forum Resident

    Great thread! That list looks just about right to me.
     
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  5. Hardy Melville

    Hardy Melville Forum Resident

    Location:
    New York
    First of all, an awesome effort by the OP here, and thank you very much.

    But I also do not fully agree with the "troll avoidance scoring adjustment". I do up to a point, but...

    Let me give what I think is the obvious counter argument right off the bat, evident by the fact that near the top of the rankings it meant that Meddle dropped one while Animals went up one. What might that have really been based on?

    Meddle not coincidentally in my view shortly preceded Dark Side of the Moon. The Floyd had their presence in the huge US market, but not near as much as after Dark Side, and then their world market increase also followed soon after. Animals of course came two after Dark Side. Given the awareness of the Floyd was much greater when Animals came out than when Meddle did, it should not be surprising even decades later that overall awareness of, and votes whether pro or con for, might be higher for it than for Meddle. Higher enough anyway as to lead to the nominal difference noted here.

    But does that make Animals a better album than Meddle? To those who know both? Not necessarily, of course.

    I have no axe to grind when it comes to Animals, btw. I have it in my own ranks solidly at 4, which is quite good. But I do think Meddle is better, and the foregoing explanation I think counters any adjustment to Meddle's disfavor. Meddle received fewer votes overall than Animals did simply because even at this remove Animals is the better known album worldwide. I doubt Animals' lower average ranking had to do with trolls.
     
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  6. troggy

    troggy Papa-Oom-Mow-Mow

    Location:
    Benton, Illinois
    Well, those adjustments were obviously flawed right off the bat because three of the albums went to a rating of over 5 stars, which isn't possible. If any adjustment needed to be made at all, it was a much smaller one.
     
  7. Say It Right

    Say It Right Not for the Hearing Impaired

    Location:
    Niagara Falls
    Not understanding what these needed to be taken out to 3 decimal points.
     
  8. Synthfreek

    Synthfreek I’m a ray of sunshine & bastion of positivity

    I see several rankings that needed this.
     
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  9. troggy

    troggy Papa-Oom-Mow-Mow

    Location:
    Benton, Illinois
    A couple of albums even needed four decimal points. Mathematically, I'm not sure you can make a good case for the third and fourth decimal point being reliable though, if voters are rating using only whole numbers.
     
  10. Johnny Reb

    Johnny Reb Résident du forum Thread Starter

    Location:
    MA
    You make good points! Obviously, like I said, it's just some manipulating of the data that comes with some problems but has some benefits - and is in no way meant to be the main results of the polls. The criticisms are valid, but I thought it would be interesting to see.
     
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  11. Zeki

    Zeki Forum Resident

    Great job, @Johnny Reb . An incredible amount of work went into keeping this poll going, compiling everything and then providing analysis.

    The Forum has spoken!

    And thanks for accepting the "familiarity" quotient as an alternative option. It made even more work for you! (Sorry). :D

    I'm going to have to take s few minutes to mull over the results.
     
  12. Johnny Reb

    Johnny Reb Résident du forum Thread Starter

    Location:
    MA
    Well, theoretically this series is intended for people who are Floyd fans and know their material at least somewhat - see the "rules" posted at the beginning of every poll. Of course, that doesn't make them trolls.

    And you bring up the real flaw of the idea in the second part. While it may work somewhat on albums like Piper and Animals and The Division Bell that have (it seems) unjustified haters who are only fans of one period of the band and who haven't even heard the album in question (witness some posts in the aforementioned threads), it really wouldn't work as well on say, Meddle or DSOTM. Thanks for bringing that up btw.
     
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  13. Johnny Reb

    Johnny Reb Résident du forum Thread Starter

    Location:
    MA
    Cheers! I'd be interested in hearing some of your thoughts on the familiarity results if you disagree with what I said... :)
     
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  14. Johnny Reb

    Johnny Reb Résident du forum Thread Starter

    Location:
    MA
    Well I think you could, no? If the number being used is a perfect whole number (not one being rounded), it literally has an infinite number of decimal places (which are zeros). Averaging such numbers to four or five decimal places is mathematically a-okay it would seem.
     
  15. Zeki

    Zeki Forum Resident

    No, I don't disagree. Let the chips fall where they may. :D
     
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  16. CorporalClegg

    CorporalClegg Forum Resident

    Location:
    Italy
    David Gilmour 1st LP is in highest position compared to Roger Waters Amused to Death ??? :eek::eek::eek:
     
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  17. troggy

    troggy Papa-Oom-Mow-Mow

    Location:
    Benton, Illinois
    I think it's fine for the purposes of this poll, yes. A real mathematician might find a little fault with how significant three or four decimal points are when someone is rating only in whole numbers.
     
  18. Teto7Totoro

    Teto7Totoro Well-Known Member

    I personally believe that MASON + FENN PROFILES should have been included in these polls... Especially if ZEE and MUSIC FROM THE BODY were included as special polls...

    David Gilmour even sings on Lie For A Lie...
     
    timiller and danasgoodstuff like this.
  19. Hardy Melville

    Hardy Melville Forum Resident

    Location:
    New York
    Yes, I know I went on at length, but in fact mine is a small quibble compared to the overall project. And I do think what you referred to as troll votes at least conceptually might be an issue.
     
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  20. asdf35

    asdf35 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin TX
    I forgot to vote somewhere, so I'm sure my opinion would change everything by .00000000000000001%.

    Team Piper! Team Barrett!
     
  21. Johnny Reb

    Johnny Reb Résident du forum Thread Starter

    Location:
    MA
    Yes, I apologize, that was not an appropriate thing to write. Here's to more votes! :cheers:
     
    Hardy Melville likes this.
  22. kendo

    kendo Forum Resident

    Why not? It's a decent rock album with no dud tracks which is arguably better than the post-Waters Floyd stuff. :hide:
    Nothing wrong with ATD but it is comparatively bloated and factor in those who just can't forgive Rog for leaving the band. :)
     
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  23. Zeki

    Zeki Forum Resident

    I'm guessing upwards of 800 forum members participated at some point in these polls. 12,002/18 is 667. And then you have members like me who, per poll instructions, didn't vote on albums I wasn't familiar with, so voters probably came in and out of the voting process.

    I don't think I'm surprised by the results, either by the straight forward numbers or the alternative. (The top 10, by the way, hardly changes at all between bare bones and weighted.)
     
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  24. Terrapin Station

    Terrapin Station Master Guns

    Location:
    NYC Man/Joy-Z City
    :(

    :wave:
     
  25. Brian Kelly

    Brian Kelly 1964-73 rock's best decade

    For me PIPER is the best by a large margin.
     
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