Ever since I got the o2/odac and alpha dog heaphones, I've been comparing some CD rips I had. Firstly, I have to agree with people saying that the debut is better. The HD tracks version of the debut sounds warm and natural whereas the UK RT CD sounds bright, brittle, and thin. However, the RT has a certain excitement to it -- maybe that's just because it's the way I remember it sounding. The only other CD I've got around to comparing is the RT Meat is Murder with the HD tracks version. RT is better for me. You can really hear the "air" in the snare drum on the RT whereas the remaster sounds sort of flat in the snare. Just my take.
Just picked up a RT The Smiths - Ask CD single for cheap . As I already had the 95 Ask CD Single on WEA (for Golden Lights), I thought I'd do a comparison: 1988 Rough Trade - RTT 194CD 1. Ask (2.59) (Actual time: 3:05) 2. Cemetry Gates (2.39) (Actual time: 2:43) 3. Golden Lights (2.38) (Actual time: 2:39) Peak Levels: Track 1: 0.920776 Track 2: 0.612823 Track 3: 0.655060 DR Values: DR11 -0.93 dB -13.54 dB 01 Ask.aiff DR12 -4.34 dB -17.86 dB 02 Cemetry Gates.aiff DR14 -3.98 dB -20.15 dB 03 Golden Lights.aiff ——————————————————————————————————————————————— 1995 WEA YZ0004CD, 4509-99383-2 1. Ask (3:14) (Actual time: 3:16) 2. Cemetry Gates (2.40) (Actual time: 2:43) 3. Golden Lights (2.41) (Actual time: 2:40) Peak Levels: Track 1: 0.947968 Track 2: 0.925201 Track 3: 0.773254 DR Values: DR12 -0.57 dB -14.17 dB 01 Ask.aiff DR12 -1.04 dB -15.47 dB 02 Cemetry Gates.aiff DR14 -2.62 dB -19.34 dB 03 Golden Lights.aiff ——————————————————————————————————————————————— Upon listening/comparing ‘Golden Lights’, it’s easy to identify the WEA from the RT as the same conclusion can be met when comparing the RT vs WEA studio albums (WEA is muddy with bloated bass and the RT has air and space). Moreover, I really do like the sound of ‘Golden Lights’ now. If you are a fan of this track AND like the RT sound, this CD single is totally recommended. I’m yet to do a listening comparison of tracks 1 and 2 with their RT album versions as I expect them to sound similar, although I notice Cemetry Gates is DR 12 on the RT CD single and DR 11 on TQID RT CD. Hope this is of some use
Kinda neat how minor level shifts and pressing facilities can give a unique sound, probably why I have so many multiple pressings of my favorites
Oh yes, the joy of collecting different early masterings of the same CDs . In the case of the RT Ask CD I got a proper listen last night and I embarrassingly never knew the single of Ask was more than just shortened version of album version, but in fact a different mix. Even the 95 single re-issue strangely uses the album version. Another reason for the RT CDS purchase . With regards to Cemetry Gates, yes, it is EQ'd slightly differently which explains the different DR values.
After months of trying to get a mint condition copy for a good price, I finally got the 1987 West German CD of 'Sheila Take a Bow' on Line Records (LICD 9.00308 L). Tracklist 1 Sheila Take A Bow 2:44 2 Is It Really So Strange 3:07 3 Sweet And Tender Hooligan 3:37 4 Shoplifters Of The World Unite 2:58 5 Half A Person 3:39 6 Panic 2:21 7 London 2:08 Peak Levels: Track 1: 1.000000 Track 2: 1.000000 Track 3: 1.000000 Track 4: 1.000000 Track 5: 1.000000 Track 6: 1.000000 Track 7: 0.871185 As mentioned by both @thoutah and @tmtomh previously in this thread, this is a good sounding disc. I've broken down my listening experience as follows. All tracks sound a lot better than the matching tracks on the UK RT 'Louder than Bombs'. Dynamic range is good (measured between 11-14, with an average of 13). Tracks 1-6 have a very small amount of clipping ('Half a person' having the least, 'Shoplifters' the most) but I can't hear them. Tracks 4 & 5 sound significantly better than they do on my original French RT/Virgin of TWWL. (Tighter bottom end, cleaner mids with a wider soundstage) Track 6 & 7 both sound better on TWWL. (a better bottom end and a clearer, well defined mid range) Overall a must have imo. It's just a pity about the small amount of clipped peaks.
The Queen is Dead: Jpn VDP-5074, 1987 01 - 100.0 % 02 - 87.9 % 03 - 81.9 % 04 - 76.7 % 05 - 80.1 % 06 - 89.2 % 07 - 74.6 % 08 - 76.8 % 09 - 85.2 % 10 - 70.8 % Jpn 32JC-162 Track 01: 83.1 % Track 02: 68.6 % Track 03: 65.0 % Track 04: 73.4 % Track 05: 63.1 % Track 06: 68.1 % Track 07: 58.0 % Track 08: 66.5 % Track 09: 66.4 % Track 10: 62.0 % Rough CD 96 UK 01 87.4 02 68.9 03 64.2 04 69.1 05 63.2 06 67.1 07 58.2 08 66.5 09 66.0 10 61.6 The two Japanese discs are different than the Fr MPO. I don't know if I've ever compared these though.
Thanks to everyone who has contributed. It's really helped me find some good Smiths CDs. I can recommend the Japan CD mini-LP of Hatful, a very nice sound and faithful cover art. I've mainly got UK originals of other Smiths albums and some on vinyl. Avoid the LTB on new vinyl - it's pants. Mastered so loud it's distorted in parts and used the wrong mixes. Buying used CDs is a lot more enjoyable than used vinyl.
Welcome to the board. Yeah, I've often wondered about the 2006 Japan Mini LP CDs and never managed to listen to one. I think they were discussed and some have said they are tweaked 1993 WEA masters. I'm not sure if that was a case by case or it applied to all The Smiths albums. Have you compared it to the UK Rough Trade Hatful of Hollow? For me, I am happy with the UK Rough Trade cds of The Smiths apart from the debut (s/t). For that I have the 2011 remaster and fortunately, it has better dynamics than the others in the 2011 series. For 'Louder than Bombs', the RT TWWL+Sheila Take a Bow CDs make for a better sounding alternative. This is a great thread which has helped me finish my collection which has been a lot of fun.
Wow, it actually contains incorrect mixes? That's odd since the Rhino LTB CD uses all the correct mixes. There's a thread about the new LTB vinyl here. It seems to get mixed reviews. If it's bad as you say, that's a shame because I actually like the Rhino LTB CD more than the Sire, except for the fact that it's louder than what is ideal.
This post got me curious and so I tracked down this mastering to audition. Having disliked other Smiths CDs from this 2006 Japan series (TWWL for example), I was quite surprised at how much I like this version of Hatful. It's got a bit more body than the early French/UK CDs, and much of the treble range seems a little more natural and less "squished" (or maybe less grainy?). It's not quite as dynamic as the original early CDs, but it's close, with most tracks in the DR11 to 13 range. Thanks for the tip, @Platos web child ! Anyone else have experience with this particular pressing of Hatful?
Actually, I remember now, the Rhino LTB does use one incorrect mix: it contains TWWL mix of You Just Haven't Earned It Yet Baby, and also, it strangely slows it down (it was probably sped up originally on TWWL). Personally I do prefer the overall tonal quality of TWWL version (it's more natural sounding), but for the sake of verisimilitude, they really should have stuck with the version that originally appeared on LTB.
Tmtomh, I haven't got the UK Rough Trade CD of Hatful, so I can't compare the Japan CD. I had Hatful in vinyl years ago but must have lent it to someone or sold it. I wish CDs had been like mini LPs from the start. I have the UK CD of LTB and the WEA - UK wins hands down. WEA sounds like it was done of an SA90 So I've got LTB 3 times - the LP is the worst. The mixes or 'Is it Really So Strange' and 'Shoplifters' don't sound right to me either. Without going into detail about it, it's a truly awful effort of an LP. I'm a vinyl lover but find myself drawn towards CDs because of cost of new pressings and problems buying used records.
Anybody know where the title "Hatful Of Hollow" comes from? I recently saw a British film and one of the lines was "We went to Paris and came back with a hatful of hollow." Spoken like a saying. Is this something British say?
Given a lot of the content of this thread, I'm hoping this isn't considered off-topic, but I decided to pick up the "Complete" CD set since it's got a lot to recommend it despite the dynamic limiting. I was shocked to find PopMarket seems to have it new for a good deal less than even used sets are going everywhere else online. Similar deal for the LP version too: http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threa...omplete-8cd-set-55-shipped-lp-set-169.468053/
So I've been listening my way through the "Complete" CD box, and while I'm not quite done, I have had one or two surprising (to me anyway) reactions. First overall impressions, and then album by album. Overall: Virtually all of these remasters sound very good to excellent at lower volume, and most also sound very good to excellent at moderate volume. At higher volumes it's more of a mixed bag, as many have noted. Marr was totally right when he talked about the jacked treble and anemic bass on most early masterings; the EQ balance here just sounds and feels right on 90% of the tracks, and when comparing with the UK RT CDs, there's an undeniable, weird-sounding "halo" of treble on those 1980s CDs. It's not a fatal flaw, and it probably shaped our perceptions of what The Smiths "should" sound like - but it's definitely there, and it definitely ain't right. I'm sure Marr was mistaken/misspeaking when he said the new remasters used no compression. However, I am convinced that some of the reduced DR on these comes down to EQ - increasing bass and cutting some treble is a textbook recipe for reducing a track's DR rating. For the price, the sonics of at least 3 of the albums, and the packaging, I'm really happy with this set. Album-by-album: The Smiths: As others have noted, this is best-of-breed; even if you're very high on the original RT CDs in general, this is the best-sounding version of this particular album. Not coincidentally, it's the most crankable of the the Marr remasters (and I believe also has the best DR numbers of the lot). Hatful of Hollow: This really surprised me. I like this one a lot. The drums on "How Soon Is Now" have never sounded right to me. The only exceptions are the version on The Very Best of... and the version on this Marr remaster of HFOH. I agree with others that some of the BBC/acoustic tracks are a bit bass-heavy, but I found the entire thing to be a surprisingly enjoyable, non-fatiguing listen. Meat Is Murder: This was my first, but least-favorite, Smiths album, so I haven't listened to it much since the 1980s. That might be biasing my feelings here because I never got attached to the sound of the original - but still, I really like the remaster, and again, while it's clearly louder and the DR rating speaks for itself, I find it very enjoyable, much meatier (better EQ balance) than the original, and not fatiguing to listen to. The Queen Is Dead: On this one I agree with the consensus: it's a fatiguing listen, too jacked up somewhere in the midrange or upper-mids. Frankly Mister Shankly and The Boy with the Thorn sound okay, but the heavier tracks like the title track and Bigmouth make me reach to turn down the volume knob. The bass and presence are superior to the UK RT original, but the negatives of the Marr remaster more than negate those benefits. The World Won't Listen: Haven't listened to this one enough to make a sound judgment yet. The differences compared to the UK RT are of course obvious, but I haven't yet sorted out how I feel about them. However, it almost doesn't matter since the earlier CDs have different versions/mixes of two tracks, and there's the whole 16-track vs 18-track version to think about, so you've gotta have multiple versions/copies of this one anyway. Louder than Bombs: With the possible exception of the Unobtanium Australian 2CD version, the Marr remaster easily is the best CD version of the album; it's not even close. Of course, that doesn't mean a whole lot because the original US and UK CDs sound like crap. It's also misleading because so many of the songs can be found on UK RT and German Line CDs from the '80s that sound far better than the original issues of LTB. But still, if you're going to have this album and you don't feel like dropping perhaps 2X the money on it that you could get the entire Smiths Complete box for, this remaster is the way to go - although Panic and Shoplifters are disappointing sonically. Strangeways: The Marr remaster is louder and punchier of course, but when you equalize the volume level, this album is the one where the overall sonic character is most similar to the original UK RT (and French Virgin - and US Sire for that matter - even the original mastering variations aren't that different from each other). The beginning and solo break of Paint a Vulgar Picture highlights the similarities I think. If I want to crank this album, I'm definitely going with my UK RT. But if I want to listen at low or even moderate volume, I'm inclined to go with the remaster. If I had to choose one, I'd choose the UK RT, because IMHO this is the album where you lose the least bass punch and clarity by reverting to the original CD. Rank: I haven't listened to this one yet. (And honestly, my give-a-sh** level on this album is low anyway...)
I'm 100% in agreement with your opinions on Meat is Murder. This is one of the best remasters in the set. Nonetheless, I really am not satisfied with the remaster of Hatful of Hollow. I find the mastering discrepancies between the studio tracks and live radio tracks to be highly distracting. This is the only album in the set that I never listen to (I have a UK RT)
Since Smiths remasters seem to be released willy-nilly every other year, I'm hoping at some point AP or another legit audiophile company takes a crack at the catalogue. All of these releases with their slightly different masterings and NONE have really nailed it yet. It just seems like there's always trade-offs and new editions which gets you that-much-closer-but not-quite-there or just taking a big sonic step sideways. This is bonkers and it's got to end.
I agree with a lot of what you say here. These remasters by and large really aren't bad, and on a case-by-case basis, some of them (like the debut, Meat is Murder, Strangeways) are really good. It's a shame about the loudness and compression, because were that not a factor, these could have been more of an unequivocal success. I especially like your comments about Louder Than Bombs. Despite the volume, it really is the best sounding version of Louder Than Bombs out there, and yet that really doesn't say a lot! I still prefer the one I cobbled together myself (from various original sources), but going on what's commercially available, the remaster is probably the one to get. Not sure if I get your comment on "Shoplifters" sounding disappointing, though. To my ears it sounds miles better than the fluttery sounding version on the Sire LTB, and is closer to the original 12" single. It's not a stellar recording to begin with (it's a bit gritty), but I've never understood why it was made to sound so awful on the Sire mastering.
Anyone feeling rich and interested in exploring the Antipodean versions all at once? There's a set of 7 Aussie Festivals (including the Louder Than Bombs Fatbox) on eBay UK at the moment with a heinous Buy It Now price. Nothing to do with me, I hasten to add - I'm currently tracking down the original RT CDs. Thanks for all the info posted here, very interesting! A few questions after catching up on this thread: - If I go full original-RT, including the debut, doesn't that leave me without the studio version of This Charming Man, only a Peel Session on Hatful of Hollow? Not a problem with How Soon Is Now, as that appears on Hatful. - In light of the above, how does the WEA re-issue of the Charming Man single sound - typically WEAish? I know it has a few exclusive b-sides too. - On the Australian 2CD unobtanium edition of LTB, which tracks are different cuts to the RT or Sire versions? Does this mean it's missing some unique content? I actually still have contacts/accounts down in the antipodes (lived in NZ for five years before returning to the UK last year), so it's not unfeasible that I could track this down for a non-silly price. Also, has anyone here done a qualitative comparison of the sound of these discs? I've seen peak postings, but don't recall seeing any actual opinions. - I'm guessing I should avoid UK PDOs if possible due to the risk of bronzing. Is this more prevalent in the gold discs? My only RT at the moment is a Nimbus pressing of Rank, but I have a French MPO of The Queen Is Dead on the way in the post.
