To answer the first question, yes, you wouldn't have the studio version of This Charming Man w/ all original RT CDs. The good news is that I (and others) have found that the Rough Trade and the Sire CDs of the debut sound identical, so if you opted to buy the US version in order to have the studio This Charming Man, you wouldn't be missing out on some amazing mastering job by skipping the RT. I haven't compared the WEA This Charming Man CDEP with anything else (and yes, the WEAs are generally not good in my experience), but if you're staying in CD land, it is nevertheless worth it for the b-sides, particularly "Wonderful Woman."
The Australian LTB sounds better to my ears than the US Sire and UK Rough Trade. It has the same track titles and track order as the US and UK versions, but it does have different versions of the tracks. If memory serves, the tracks that differ are ones for which there is a different version on The World Won't Listen or Hatful of Hollow. So in other words, for many (maybe most) of the songs LTB shares with TWWL or HFOH, the Australian LTB uses the TWWL or HOFH version. I believe this fact also might solve the mystery of why the AUS LTB is 2 CDs: Some of those alt. versions of the tracks are a little bit longer than the versions that appear on the US & UK version of LTB. That might have pushed the overall running time too close for Festival Records' comfort for a 1-CD set at the time. As for the UK PDOs, I can't comment on bronzing, but I haven't heard of the gold discs becoming "more gold," e.g. bronzing. (If the collector-favorite gold-disc versions of Strangeways were prone to bronzing, for example, I would imagine we'd have heard about it by now.) I can say, though, that the French MPO, French PDO, and UK Nimbus masterings have been identical on every Smiths CD I've had the chance to compare. So to be safe, I'd say go for the MPO as long as it doesn't cost a lot more money and you don't care about the aesthetics of whether the CD is silver or gold.
Oh - one more listening note, apropos of my comments on the Complete set earlier in this thread: I got around to listening to Rank, and I was pleasantly surprised. I haven't owned the original in many years, so in this case I'm only going on memory. That said, my distinct memory of the original is that it was (A) rather muddy and (B) anemic in the bass region. The combined effect was a kind of dull sludge, punctuated by Morrissey's jarring grunts and yelps. It almost sounded like he was recorded in the usual way from his vocal mike, while the rest of the band were recorded from a couple of stage mikes - they sounded distant and indistinct compared to him. So to my ears, the remaster restores the proper frequency balance, and therefore the balance between Morrissey and the rest of the band. The drums and bass are more distinct and more up-front, and the entire thing feels more integrated and cohesive. Being that it's a live recording and they generally adopted a heavier sound in concert than in the studio, I was prepared to shut the album off after a couple of tracks due to listening fatigue. But here again I found myself surprised: I really enjoyed the power of the band, and started to feel the first onset of listening fatigue only about 2/3 of the way through "Bigmouth" - but that's the last song and so the album ended just a minute or so later. This was the first time I'd ever enjoyed listening to Rank all the way through.
What release were you comparing it to the memory of? My RT isn't lacking in drums, and while the bass is a bit anaemic to start, I think it gets brought up in the mix by the sound desk, and is noticeably more present by Cemetry Gates. Bigmouth sounds great, balance wise. Not a big live album fan, mind, and Morrisey's dicking around on some of their classics gives the impression that he was bored of singing them. But worth the occasional spin.
I think I had the US Sire - and in any event, I would trust your impression of the original mastering more than my memory. Totally agree with you about Morrissey's apparent state of mind/attitude - was the biggest turn-off about the album for me when I first got it as an earnest young college student.
I always thought Morrissey's grunts, whoops and hollers on Rank livened things up! I agree that sometimes he overdid it, like on "Still Ill" for example, but generally he sounds confident and inspired to me here. And Rank is a powerful performance by the whole band, I think. I'm always surprised that so many seem down on this one. Oh, and the Rank version of "The Draize Train" here is rock solid. It runs rings all around the anemic studio recording.
Yeah, I always thought Morrissey's live vocal theatrics, or whatever you want to call them, were just meant to be silly or ironic, and definitely not an indication of boredom or a bad attitude. I'm not sure if I've actually listened to the Complete CD version of Rank, so I'll have to pull that out sometime soon. But you can count me as another who was never overly wowed by Rank.
Just did a quick comparison of the UK RT and remaster of "Rank". RT CD kills the remaster. Listen to the first 15 seconds of Bigmouth strikes again and you'll notice how much clearer the RT is (especially the drums). Remaster has more bass, though. And the RT is a tad bright. Don't count me on this one though, since I only had time to compare the first half of Bigmouth.
There are two versions of TCM CD single on WEA. One has the unique b-sides, which are all good songs, and the other has about 7 versions of TCM on it. I can understand someone wanting to get a great sounding version of a favourite album but the WEA will be fine for just one song surely? (I think we kinda lose perspective on this forum sometimes).
I think the US Sire/RT of the first album sounds like a good solution - I'm generally against jiggling with original album track orders, but I believe This Charming Man has been retained on the debut for the Smiths Complete edition, while How Soon Is Now has been dropped from Meat Is Murder. This could be for practical reasons - HSIN is on Hatful, while TCM has no other home - but could be seen as the band making the new running order canonical. From memory it first turned up on cassettes issued by RT themselves, so it's not a classic overseas-random-track-insertion case. Next problem - tracking down a Sire copy of the debut in the UK...
Ugh! I hadn't realized that This Charming Man wasn't on any of the RT CDs. I have the Sire single with Jeane and Accept Yourself, so I guess I am covered.
Just got my RT Queen Is Dead (MPO France). Good God, this absolutely smokes the WEA! Even Frankly, Mr Shankly sounds good. Really excited to track down the others now. Intrigued by the "Better than Bombs" project being discussed here. Just spent fifteen minutes playing with spreadsheet, and concluded the following about digital sources for tracks that aren't on either Hatful or TWWL. I daresay this repeats things earlier in the thread, but I couldn't find it, at least not all in one place. German Line Sheila Take A Bow EP: Is it Really So Strange (Peel Session) Sheila Take A Bow Sweet & Tender Hooligan (Peel Session) RT Ask single: Golden Lights RT What Difference Does It Make Single: These Things Take Time (studio) Back to the Old House (studio) Assuming the Aussie Festival uses the TWWL/Hatful versions of any duplicated tracks (i.e. radio sessions in place of studio tracks), then it's not a perfect solution, but it could be used as decent a source of: Is it Really So Strange (Peel Session) Sheila Take A Bow Sweet & Tender Hooligan (Peel Session) Golden Lights The following don't seem to have any direct alternative digital sources: You Just Haven't Earned It Yet, Baby (US Mix) - TWWL has the UK mix Stretch Out & Wait (original vocal version) - TWWL has an alternate vocal Both of which seem fairly minor.
Ah, hang on - the RT Barbarism Begins At Home CD single has Stretch Out & Wait on it. Presumably that's the same version found on LtB, can anyone confirm?
This is how I did my personal Louder Than Bombs CD. Of course other people's versions may vary. (Note that I don't have the supposedly good sounding Australian LTB.) 1. Is It Really So Strange? - German Line Sheila CDEP 2. Sheila Take a Bow - German Line Sheila CDEP 3. Shoplifters of the World - German Line Sheila CDEP 4. Sweet and Tender Hooligan - German Line Sheila CDEP 5. Half A Person - German Line Sheila CDEP 6. London - RT TWWL CD (preferred this one slightly over the Line CD) 7. Panic - German Line Sheila CDEP 8. Girl Afraid - RT Hatful CD 9. Shakespeare's Sister - RT TWWL CD 10. William It Was Really Nothing - RT Hatful CD 11. You Just Haven't Earned It Yet Baby - Sire LTB CD (I know... see below) 12. Heaven Knows I'm Miserable Now - RT Hatful CD 13. Ask - RT TWWL CD 14. Golden Lights - Sire LTB CD 15. Oscillate Wildly - RT TWWL CD 16. These Things Take Time - needle drop from original What Difference RT 12" 17. Rubber Ring - UK TWWL CD 18. Back To The Old House - needle drop from original What Difference RT 12" 19. Hand In Glove - Sire LTB CD (I know... see below) 20. Stretch Out And Wait - needle drop from original RT Shakespeare's Sister 12" 21. Please, Please, Please Let Me Get What I Want - RT Hatful CD 22. This Night Has Opened My Eyes - RT Hatful CD 23. Unloveable - RT TWWL CD 24. Asleep - RT TWWL CD For a few of these tracks that are exclusive to LTB, I cheated and did needle drops from the 12"s, rather than attempt to track down the CD singles. (Maybe someday I'll make a version that's all needle drops.) Also, I've got three tracks from the Sire LTB. What the hell? Well, I had no real choice for "You Just Haven't Earned It Yet Baby" because that particular mix is exclusive to Louder Than Bombs. For "Golden Lights" I could have done a needle drop from the Ask 12" or tracked down the RT CD single, but I'm not overly fond of that song and I just didn't care enough. But For "Hand In Glove", I a/b'd it with the version on the RT Hatful CD several times, and I actually kind of preferred the LTB version because it has a little added low end that gives it a sort of punch, which I honestly liked.
^^^ When I did my cobbled together Bombs, I did away with the tracks that were already on HoH. So mine ended up to be most of the UK TWWL, with: 1 Shelia Take a Bow 2:44 STaB 2 Is it Really so Strange 3:08 STaB 3 Sweet and Tender Hooligan 3:38 STaB At the beginning, and: 17 These Things Take Time 2:24 "WDDIM" 18 Back to the Old House 3:06 "WDDIM" 19 Golden Lights 2:41 "Ask" At the end.
I know people are fond of the configurations of Hatful, TWWL, and Bombs, but wouldn't it be great if we could get a couple of releases that rendered them superfluous? I would love to see a "Complete BBC Sessions collection" and a "Complete non-album singles and b-sides" collection. By my estimates, this would comprise about three hours of music total.
And the Troy Tate sessions while we're at it. And there must be other interesting outtakes we don't know of somewhere on a tape in a vault... I know The Smiths isn't the most popular band on earth, but the fans are passionnate and dedicated, such a box set would certainly sell very well.
Welp, I just impulse bought an RT What Difference Does It Make CD after it came up on eBay for ~£8, so I guess I'm going down this route after all. Time to start scouring eBay.de for copies of Sheila, Take A Bow - if you don't mind me asking, what kind of ballpark figures did current owners pay for theirs?
Love to see an expanded debut album with the Tate version of disc 2. I only have a boot, so it's not ideal soundwise, but around half the tracks I prefer the Tate version. I don't think there is anything at all in the vaults, sadly. The Smiths were one of those rare bands that literally worked on everything they did to a finish and released it. They were just so good they didn't record any stuff that was not considered releasable. There was the album of out takes that got leaked a few years back (the rumour was it was leaked by someone in/close to the band). Not much there really, just the odd instrumental and some alternative versions. I think Morrissey and Marr are quite pleased how their 'compilation' albums are really liked and still in print, and considered entities of their own. They wouldn't really want something that replaced them, although a complete BBC disc I think in this day and age is essential now.
Yes, the same; starting "On the high-rise estate..." Here's the detail btw: DR11 -2.58 dB -14.72 dB 2:38 03-Stretch Out And Wait
Yeah, I think it's pretty strange that the Tate sessions haven't been officially released at this point. And don't forget, there are actually two versions of the Tate sessions. My very favorite versions of "Reel Around The Fountain" and "Wonderful Woman" are from the Tate recordings. It's surprising to me that they haven't done an expanded version of the debut, as I think people would eat that up. As for stuff in the vaults, remember there was that rarities bootleg that was released several years back, and that contains some pretty cool stuff that's never been officially released, particularly the original recordings of "Is It Really So Strange?", "Sheila Take A Bow", and the Tate version of "Reel Around The Fountain". So, probably half of that album actually isn't very interesting, but there is some stuff there that I think deserves to see the light of day.
I got mine off eBay in early 2014 and paid about $9US plus shipping. But the prices seem higher today. For UK/European buyers there are some relatively affordable copies on discogs from European sellers starting at around 15€ / 11£ plus shipping. It's a real shame that the 2nd remastered set Marr wanted to do, of rarities, never saw the light of day. I think you are right that it likely would've contained stuff that's already out on bootlegs (albeit presumably it would be in better sound quality), since by all indications there's virtually nothing left in The Smiths vault that hasn't already leaked. In fact, apropos of your comment that material was leaked by someone in or close to the band, I have to wonder if Marr himself had someone leak it, after he encountered the legal barriers he's referred to in some interviews. To me, the "demos and outtakes" bootleg that surfaced sounds like it could have come from the original tapes, but the sound is not quite official release quality because they were rough mixes, not professionally mastered, and probably digitized quickly and not necessarily in the most professional manner. As for a compilation, it strikes me that the "Singles" CD is very close to what a definitive compilation disc should be. The mastering is very good (though not without room for improvement), and the chronological singles format is probably the best way to summarize this band's output. The only problem is that 1/3 of the tracks are the album versions and not the singles versions, which is mind-bogglingly stupid. As for BBC, I have an excellent fan remaster of the "missing" BBC tracks never officially released, and I think it's only four tracks. So while I get that Hatful of Hollow is a mishmash of BBC and other tracks, and Louder than Bombs contains a couple of additional BBC tracks, I'm not sure I would want a full BBC release that duplicated so many tracks from HFOH and LTB - there's already so much duplication in the catalogue anyway. The four missing BBC performances are excellent - but I might just prefer them on a rarities release where everything was previously unreleased.
Reel Around The Fountain - for me it's the Peel version or nothing. I know this is biased - I listened to it when first broacast, recorded it on a C90 and wore that tape out playing that session over and over again. It's the version I fell in love with and the version that sounds 'right', just the right level of tension, pace etc. I hate the album version and the piano. I wonder what version someone fresh to it would pick in a blind test though.
