The Sound Of Vinyl

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Johann, Jun 7, 2006.

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  1. Another Side

    Another Side Senior Member

    Location:
    San Francisco
    It's not the curvature it's just the fact that the record has less space to fit in all the information. Look at the quote from Kevin Gray in post #16.
     
  2. soundQman

    soundQman Senior Member

    Location:
    Arlington, VA, USA
    OK, thanks. I suppose that's one reason why a 12" 45 rpm single would sound so much better than an album at 33-1/3, because the grooves (and the vibrations) can be more spread out. But I can see the geometry is going to come into play even there; it would just ameliorate the effects. I was going to point out that a linear tracking arm theoretically follows the same path as the cutting head and would therefore offer lower tracking distortion. But you already know that. :)
     
  3. Graham Start

    Graham Start Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    AFAIK, the cartridge bodies are the same. There is also the OM Super body as well, available with a 10, 20, or 30 stylus. The stylii are all interchangeable. In fact, Ortofon designed them so that the cartridge just says "OM", and the number is on the stylus attachment and lines up next to the "OM".

    Having said that, I found the OM to be a bit thin-sounding and lean on the bass. Could be the whole system synergy thing though. I don't know what the OM Super or Concorde is like in this regard.
     
  4. Graham Start

    Graham Start Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    But unless you're dealing with a short straight "scratch play" tonearm (which is totally unsuited to playing music), the angle offset at it's worst is still very slight. Depending on how you align the cartridge, you can have it so that it's perfectly perpendicular at the beginning and end of a side (where it is most important). Longer tonearms can further reduce the effect, but the benefits are so small that it's not hard to see why these have not taken off. Linear tracking arms are extremely difficult to design so that they sound good and work properly. There are heaps of 80s Japanese tables with linear tracking tonearms, but they are trouble-prone and as for sonics, the vast majority of vinyl enthusiasts would take an RB-250 over these any day.

    It's all about stylus profile. If the stylus shape is bigger than the groove modulations, it's going to mistrack no matter how you align it.
     
  5. OcdMan

    OcdMan Senior Member

    Location:
    Maryland
    Right, stylus profile is a critical component. If it isn't already obvious, it should be pointed out for those new to vinyl that a well-mastered LP played back with a quality cartridge on a properly set up turntable will NOT sound like a distorted, muffled cassette by the time you reach the inner grooves. :thumbsup:
     
  6. Derek Gee

    Derek Gee Senior Member

    Location:
    Detroit
    That is correct, Johann, it is inherent in the manufacturing process for magnetic tape.

    Derek
     
  7. sungshinla

    sungshinla Vinyl and Forum Addict

    Is this still going on? Aarrgghh
     
  8. Uncle Ants

    Uncle Ants New Member

    As Graham points out ... same body, so no disadvantage (quite the opposite). Yes, better tracking, better bottom and top end, less distortion and better detail. from the OM5e to the OM30 is quite a leap and budget deck though it is, the Debut is perfectly capable of showing it.

    BTW. OM, OMB* and Super OM ... all identical ... Ortofon just haven't been 100% consistent with their naming conventions from what I can see (*B for Bulk, used on pre installed OMs).

    PS. Cheapest line contact cartridge I'm aware of (at least here in the UK - it may differ with different markets) is either the Goldring 1012GX or the AT440ML - both good and both about £90 to £100, which is cheaper than the UK price for the OM30.

    Also I have had cartridges which were eliptical that have performed well - the Denon DL-160 for example is as un prone to end of side distortion as any line contact I've tried
     
  9. Graham Start

    Graham Start Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    FWIW, Ortofon claims that the Super is an improvement over the regular OM. They still offer both, and naturally the Super costs more. Has anyone had experience with both to compare?

    I presume that this must be because it's a very small conical tip. I've considered trying out one of the Denons, but I can't seem to find any information on what the difference is between the 110 and the 160.
     
  10. Uncle Ants

    Uncle Ants New Member

    Are you sure? So far as I'm aware the designations are OM5e (without the super) and then Super OM10, OM20 and OM30. The bodies are definitely the same and I'm not aware of there being OM10 v Super OM10 styli available. At least not from the distributor here.

    Probably - they describe its as Special eliptical and its pretty small - its a demon tracker as well. The 110 has a larger stylus and is slightly less compliant (on paper). My test record suggests the compliance is quite a bit higher than the published figure though.
     
  11. mrbooboy

    mrbooboy Forum Resident

    From a web-site carrying Ortofon's cartridges...

    "The Super OM stylus units are also compatible with all the bodies of the entire ortofon OMP line. IF you own an OM cartridge, you are able to enjoy the improved stylus and cantilever technology of the Super OM range. However, it takes a Super OM body with Ortofon's new magnetic circuitry to realize the full Super OM potential."

    It is the comment about "magnetic circuitry" that made me wonder if the Super OM cartridge was worth the upgrade (rather than just buying a OM30 stylus and sticking in the OM5e's body).

    David
     
  12. soundQman

    soundQman Senior Member

    Location:
    Arlington, VA, USA
    Sure, but I've been dreaming about the $9000 Kuzma linear tonearm which Michael Fremer thinks may be the best ever made. Of course I'll never afford that so I'll stick to conventional tonearms.
     
  13. Uncle Ants

    Uncle Ants New Member

    Interesting stuff. I'm going to have to check up on this, but it looks wrong to me. The OMP designations refers to the P mount versions. If you check Ortofon's own site they list OM3e, OM5e and then Super OM10, OM20, OM30. The styluses are actually known as the stylus 10, 20, 30 and 40 (neither super or no) and I have been told by the distributor here that the bodies are identical and yet above we have something else .... confused? I am now. I'll check with the distributor and get back when I have something definitive.

    PS. Even if there really are two different OM bodies out there I'd be astonished if it made a fraction of the difference that the stylus would make.
     
  14. marcb

    marcb Senior Member

    Location:
    DC area
    Correct. Virtually none of my vinyl sounds this way.
     
  15. -=Rudy=-

    -=Rudy=- ♪♫♪♫♫♪♪♫♪♪ Staff

    Location:
    US
    Just to throw more fuel on the fire, and probably reiterate what others have said--I collected a lot of 12" singles and only really noticed the degradation when I was using a low-end Shure cartridge (actually a Realistic/Shure that came on one of their mid-line turntables back in the late 70s). The Grado GF3E+ was only slightly improved, but my Shure V15VMR (still in use today, after 24 years in my system) plays everything with ease. The tip geometry (Micro Ridge) helped it nagivate the tight inner grooves, and lightweight cantilever reduced moving mass so it could track the high frequencies easily. Even 45RPM records had a new lease on life...as long as they weren't already worn. Unfortunately a couple of my earlier 12" singles had some minor groove damage from the elliptical stylus. :mad:
     
  16. Publius

    Publius Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin, TX
    Most of my vinyl sounds that way (notable inner groove distortion). But, most of my vinyl is used. The few pieces of new vinyl I have do not sound like that. Remember, it's not just the playback, it's whatever played it back before.
     
  17. Johann

    Johann Forum Resident Thread Starter

    I thank you once again for all the feedback, I would like to make a specific choice as to which cartridge to switch to from my Ortofon Concorde spherical Night Club, in the hopes of seeing an improvement with inner groove distortion.

    I did read some of the early suggestions: Shure M97xE, Audio-Technica AT440MLa, Ortofon's Super OM 30. (if it's a cartridge that has not been discontinued, it will be a relief when looking for it).
     
  18. I haven't had much luck with the m97xe; many people are big fans of it, but it exhibited inner groove distortion no matter how I had it set up on two different tables, trying three or four different styli. I honeslty think I'll wind up selling mine at some point (I have two).

    My 440ML, while it can be bright, is a MUCH better tracker than the m97xe. Just my opinion; I realize that the Shure has many supporters here so understand this is just my experience.
     
  19. Uncle Ants

    Uncle Ants New Member

    Hi Guys, okay the distributor's aren't sure ... so I've had a bit of a play.

    All my experience with the OM series has pretty much been with the Debut and the cartridge its fitted with the OMB5e (the bulk purchased verison of the OM5e) and the various upgrade OM styli with that. It has a body which just says OMB. I've tried this quite few times with different OM styli and each is a definite improvement. The biggest to my ears being the move to the OM30. (so that answers the question David was asking - yes its worthwhile).

    Now I was pretty sure the bodies were the same, but I just pulled one of the OM10 (full cartridges rather than the styli) out of its box and guess what ... the body says Super OM (so at this point I eat one of my shoes) - well I'll be ... never noticed that. Except I just tried it on a Debut and on a side by side with another Debut using the body that doesn't say Super ... it sounds exactly the same.

    I'd conclude that there ARE two different bodies - one that ships with the OM5e/OMB5e and one that ships with the OM10, OM20 and OM30 - the difference seems to be that one says Super on it and the other doesn't - course my ears could be wrong. But if there is a difference its subtle and a lot subtler than the difference between styli.

    Oh and I don't know for sure, but the Ortofon site suggests you can use an OM30 stylus on a concorde.
     
  20. Graham Start

    Graham Start Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    My understanding is that the stylii (10, 20, 30) are the same across the board, but there is or was supposedly a difference between Super and regular cartridge bodies. I just checked Ortofon's site and there is no longer a "non-Super" version for the 10/20/30.

    I seem to recall that there used to be such a thing, but perhaps I'm not remembering correctly. You say that there's no significant difference, which doesn't surprise me. :) The only thing that I can say with confidence is that the 20, while not stellar, is a major improvement over the 10. I had considered going for the 30, but Ortofon's products are not cheap where I live. Since I was never that happy with the overall sound of the cart in my system, I went for the V15 instead.
     
  21. Uncle Ants

    Uncle Ants New Member

    Well its certainly confusing and its confused me. Yesterday it was all starightforard in my head and now its a morass :rolleyes:

    Probably the right decision anyways - the V15 was fabulous cart - shame they discontinued it. And a shame I pranged mine on my sweater sleeve ... just after they had discontinued it.
     
  22. Cheap Mitsubishi linear-tracking tables (20 years old) show up on eBay now and again.
    I played with one last year and was surprised at how well it tracked the last song on each side.
     
  23. RobSaghini

    RobSaghini New Member

    This thread is really old, and yet when searching for this problem in Google, it's one of the first results. It's a very interesting thread, and I still have to finish reading it to the end, but I wanted to contribute one thing. The OP is from Buenos Aires, Argentina, and I was from there too until I moved to the US over ten years ago. The reason why the last song problem is so much more apparent to him is that he probably has a lot of Argentinean editions of vinyl records, and those are of really poor manufacturing quality. I grew up with vinyl records, and even though I had a cheap turntable, the difference between the Argentinean and the American or UK versions of albums was night and day. In the Argentinean versions the CLV problem was far more evident, even before reaching the last song. Not only they were made of the cheapest vinyl, they were thin as paper and they sounded terrible. Sure they still sounded better than the Argentinean editions of cassette tapes, so they were still the media of choice before CD.

    This doesn't mean that all American versions are excellent. I just got a batch of used records for very low prices, all of them in really good condition, and the problem of the last song varies among albums. There's for example Mike Oldfield's "Tubular Bells", a cheap American original edition, not 180g or anything deluxe, just barebones, and while this album doesn't have a last song since it's one long song per side, on both songs there is no distortion or lack of quality as it gets towards the center, even to the last minute. In other albums, the distortion is apparent even before the last song. As a general rule, the last song is always poor quality.

    Now, jumping back to 2014, what would be the best turntable and cartridge/stylus to avoid this problem?
     
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