SH Spotlight The True Story of the "Into the Mystic" mixing goof on Van Morrison's "Moondance" album

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Steve Hoffman, Jan 17, 2007.

  1. andyinstal

    andyinstal Runner for Others

    Location:
    Allen, Texas
    Was the cutting master in this case a safety copy?
     
  2. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Audiophile Music Mastering Your Host Thread Starter

    Re-read my first post; it's all there..
     
  3. mfp

    mfp Forum Resident

    Location:
    Paris, France
    :confused:
    I'm not sure I understood the story... My copy is not at all a beautiful original green label Warner, it's a rather ugly French reissue from the late 70s/80s with a cheap cover (not a gatefold), and I definitely have tambourine on ITM.
     
  4. JeffN727

    JeffN727 Active Member

    Anybody know if the 8-track or cassette had the tambourine mix?
    :cool:
     
  5. JPartyka

    JPartyka I Got a Home on High

    Wow, you learn something new all the time. :cool:

    I just checked both of my green-label copies (one with a W7 label, one with a WB, both RE-1/"1C" Side A's) and they both have the tambourine and the full-volume foghorn effect. I have to admit I never noticed the difference from the familiar CD mix (which was how I first heard the song) when listening before.
     
  6. Another Side

    Another Side Well-Known Member

    Location:
    San Francisco
    I think Andy was referring to my post at the bottom of the previous page, Steve. My question was why the cutting master was created if was not used to cut the initial run of records.
     
  7. CardinalFang

    CardinalFang New Member

    Location:
    ....
    I believe it was not unheard of to use the master during the first cutting, then keep the EQed version on hand for future cuts. It certainly wasn't standard practice, but it depended on the engineer and/or label.
     
  8. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Audiophile Music Mastering Your Host Thread Starter


    That's what they did in the analog days after around 1967.... Why do you think that a "first cutting" is the sought after pressing in the collector world? The EQ Cutting Master is created at the same time as the first cut and has the EQ moves built in to the tape so future engineers do not have to do anything but thread and cut.
     
  9. Pawnmower

    Pawnmower Forum Resident

    Location:
    Dearborn, MI
    They didn't say that Van intended it with a different lineup. It sounds like the producer, etc.. worked that lineup out.. sent it to Van, and he changed it.
     
  10. Another Side

    Another Side Well-Known Member

    Location:
    San Francisco
    I see. In this case the EQ cutting master was created before the eventual first cutting. But in general that wouldn't be the case. I had always assumed that the EQ cutting master was created first and all cuttings were made from that. It had not occurred to me that they could do the original cutting and create the EQ cutting master at the same time. :thumbsup:
     
  11. lukpac

    lukpac Forum Resident

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    So did the Moondance cutting master have the EQ moves built in or not? First it sounds like the cutting master was flat, and then it sounds like it was EQ'd...

    Also, was the remix (non-tambourine) tacked on to the end of the original master?
     
  12. Another Side

    Another Side Well-Known Member

    Location:
    San Francisco
    Well, if I understand Steve correctly, "flat" in this case is relative. A flat dub was made of the cutting in essence, not of the master itself.
     
  13. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Audiophile Music Mastering Your Host Thread Starter

    These questions are nuts beyond my ability to crack.

    All I know is if you listen to the CD of the MOONDANCE album, every song EXCEPT the remix of "Into The Mystic" sounds pinched and "EQ'd" sounding. Give a listen. This leads me to believe that the remix was spliced right into an EQ reel, blah, blah.


    A&R Studios in those days made flat safety copies AND EQ copies (simultaneous cutting masters) for clients so go figure.

    Talk amongst yourselves, gotta go to work.
     
  14. andyinstal

    andyinstal Runner for Others

    Location:
    Allen, Texas
    Whatcha workin on Steve? ;)
     
  15. Moondance

    Very interesting Steve. Speaking of Van the Man. I would like to see you "Steveify" His Band & The Street Choir, St. Dominic's Preview, No Method, No Guru, and Enlightenment.

    By the way, those of you Van fans, listen to Enlightenment again and tell us what you think. Is this not a superb album or what? :agree:
     
  16. Craig

    Craig (unspecified) Staff

    Location:
    North of Seattle
    Enlightenment? Don't know what it is. :confused:
     
  17. sungshinla

    sungshinla Vinyl and Forum Addict

    Thanks for the inside scoop, Steve!

    That story explains a lot of things.

    BTW, Ben, thanks for reading my posts, lol. I think you, Steve and GetRhythm may have been the only ones -- just kidding.

    A truly great album and truly a wonderful story.
     
  18. Mal

    Mal Phorum Physicist

    Went shopping for the tambourine mix today - as I expected based on other's posts both EU pressings I auditioned had that mix :righton:

    I checked an original red label UK pressing and it had the "right" mix but I settled on a German re-issue since it was in much better condition.

    So, it seems that overseas plants were sent the right tapes - looks like these must have been made from the original masters.

    Now I just have to get my record deck back in action - it's been gathering dust for a couple of years now!

    It's odd that the CDs have the "wrong" mix since the original CD from which all others are derived was the West German target?!?
     
  19. -Ben

    -Ben Active Member

    Location:
    Washington DC Area
    I always read your posts. :D :righton:
     
  20. sungshinla

    sungshinla Vinyl and Forum Addict

    As I do your posts, Ben.

    I am blushing, LOL!
     
  21. Mike D'Aversa

    Mike D'Aversa Forum Resident

    Maybe the condition of their tape was pretty crappy by the mid/late 80's, and New York wanted the cd digitally transferred from a newer tape? So, they sent over a new dub of the safety copy/EQ'd cutting master? This would explain why the current cd sounds like crap/at least three generations removed from the original master...
     
  22. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Audiophile Music Mastering Your Host Thread Starter

    Could be, I guess, but probably not because it's worn out, just because dubs with the words "cutting master" even though irreverent for CD manufacturing still get pulled for CD/digital use.
     
  23. I acquired a Warner off-white label, W German pressing of Moondance the other day from a U.K. seller on eBay, privately for £2.50. (I missed the end of the actual auction. Opening price was £2.99. I had E-mailed the seller to make sure this LP had the tambourine mix of "Into The Mystic".)

    Very inexspensive way to pick up the tambourine Moondance if you're not concerned with buying a first olive green U.S. pressing. The LP is stone mint, maybe played once or twice. Sounds great!

    Here is the LP information.

    Label number on:
    LP label - K 46040
    Front jacket - 46040 and WS 1835
    Back jacket - 46040G, WS 1835 and France WE: 321.
    (IIRC, someone recently mentioned that W Germany pressed all Warner LPs in the early 1980s for France and the U.K.)

    Matrix numbers (all machine stamped)

    Side 1
    R/S Alsdorf 46040 A2x (7 o'clock)
    STRAWBERRY (C) (between 8 and 9 o'clock)

    Side 2
    R/S Alsdorf 46040 B4 X (11 o'clock)
    STRAWBERRY (C) (12 o'clock)
    ______________________

    As you will see in the scans this particular LP is probably a re-issue based on how the label numbers appear on the jacket in black and the Prime Cuts! sticker. Local forum member jonathan_s has the same LP, IIRC, without the Prime Cuts! sticker.
     

    Attached Files:

  24. munson66

    munson66 Forum Dilettante

    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    Gotta love the typo on that first track -- "And I Stoned Me." Sheesh, doesn't everyone know the reflexive pronoun is called for? Clearly, it should read "And I Stoned Myself." :laugh:
     
  25. Gary Mack

    Gary Mack Active Member

    Location:
    Arlington, Texas
    The tambourine mix also appears on the Warner Brothers soundtrack LP to the film, Dusty and Sweets McGee. It's WS1936.

    Here's a short sample from my vinyl copy.

    GM
     

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