The true weight of audiophile LPs. What's the deal?

Thanks for your comments. I think it's fun to find out what LPs weighed back in the day, when no companies were marketing heavy weight/audiophile vinyl.

It's hilarous to me anyway, that RCA Dynaflex LPs weigh in at 88 grams.
Some of those pressings sound pretty good. I have a very nice Nillson Schmillson Dynaflex LP that weighs 88 grams.

Does anyone know, when audiohile LPs began being marketed by weight? The 1980s?

 

Actually a 200 gram LP is more expensive than a 180g or 150 gram LP. Doesn't matter that in real cost the 200 gram LP isn't much more expensive to manufacture than the 180g. Bottom line is Classic Records and other companies charge more for it. So the buyer better be getting what he/she is paying for, or he/she is being short changed.

Well earlier I displayed the results of the Rhino Doors 180 gram LP box set. The Morrison Hotel LP is 216 grams. That's 46 grams heavier than what it should be. I think Rhino and or RTI might be interested to know that.

Here are more weigh ins with better results.

The Beach Boys - Pet Sounds - Capitol U.S. - From The Vaults - 180 grams - actual weight 176g
The Band - The Band aka The Brown Album - Capitol U.S. - From The Vaults - 180 grams - actual weight 186g

Jethro Tull - This Was - EMI U.K. Centenury edition LP - 180 grams - actual weight 176g

Cream - Goodbye Cream - Simply Vinyl U.K. - 180 grams - actual weight 176g

Cream - Disraeli Gears - Universal Japan - 200 gram series - actual weight 196g
Jimi Hendrix Experience - Axis... - Universal Back To Black - 180 grams - actual weight 188g

Jimi Hendrix Experience - Axis... - Classic Records mono - 200 grams - actual weight 196g
Kenny Burrell - Midnight Blue - Classic Records stereo - 200 grams - actual weight 192g
C S N Y - Deja Vu - Classic Records - 200 grams - actual weight 202g
Miles Davis - Kind Of Blue - Classic Records - 200 grams - actual weight 220g - Wow!

Miles Davis - Kind Of Blue - Columbia/Sony 50th Anniversary blue vinyl edition - 180 grams - actual weight 176g

Buddy Holly - Buddy Holly - MCA Heavy Weight LP - 180 grams - actual weight 190g

The Doobie Brothers - The Captain & Me - Speakers Corner Germany - 180 grams - actual weight 180 grams
Steely Dan - Can't Buy A Thrill - Speakers Corner Germany - 180 grams - actual weight 180 grams

 

Re: Art Pepper Meets The Rhythm Section LP

Thanks Steve. Interesting. Was it Chad who came up with the idea of heavy weight vinyl and the marketing of it?

 

120 vs 180 - not that big of deal

I like the new 45 rpm jazz releases - they sound great - probably a bigger deal than 120 vs 180

I get the Music Matters BLue Notes - even have a serial number below 100 and love them except for the quick 2 song sides

that said I can get a lot vibrancy from the inexpensive OJC releases
$12-15 versus $50+ 45 rpm
that's a lot more music I can afford

VTA
I have a triplaner tonearm where you can actually set vta on the fly
when I have a thicker record I start in a general area with a slightly raised arm alignment. My ZYX cartridge is very sensitive to vta and the sweet spot is incredible as you manually dial it in by ear for each record

I enjoy 1970's - 80's Japanese Pressings of 70's music
much cleaner vinyl and recordings - great quality control

thank God I recorded them to tape and never played them then
my current analog rig plays them perfect with virtually no degredation

 

I see the bold-faced part I highlighted, and I hear a complaint. Either way, and I'm not trying to be a d**k, but my point was...have you made strides to let manufacturers/labels/merchants know about this discrepancy? What did they say? Exchange? Refund? Or is it time to bring in Joel Grover?

 

I don't think you understood my post.

Yes they charge more for the 200g, but not because of all the extra money they have to spend to get that extra weight, but because the 200g version is the "premium" edition. Whether it's off by plus or minus 10g or whatever is really irrelevant, it's not like you can melt these down and sell them on the open PVC market.

You're just not losing any real 'value' when the weight is off.

 

This has not been my experience. For example, if one looks at RTI's price list

http://www.recordtech.com/vinyl.htm

one could notice that RTI charges its clients higher prices for 180 gram pressings than "regular weight pressings".

Also notice that metal processing and test pressings cost more for 180 gram records.

One can also deduce that shipping charges will be higher for shipments of records that (on average, if you will) weigh more.

Bottom line is that record companies do pay more to manufacture and distribute heavier records. That is why in the 1970s, record companies began to make noticeably thinner pressings. It was a cost saving measure.

 

If the sticker says "200 g" or "180 g" I expect this to be so - most are not sold as "premium edition" or "heavy edition" or are they ? They are sold as "180 g" or "200 g". Otherwise don't call them that .....

 

Just because the biscuit it's pressed from is 200 gm does not mean the record will be
200gm. What if there was a full inch of dead-wax? What if the record has a lot of bass?

Perhaps there are differing amounts of flash strimmed from the edge of the record,
individually.

 

I have the new MoFi "My Aim Is True" pressed by RTI. It weighs 202 grams.
Are you sure the Kevin Gray cut was pressed at RTI? I had heard it was done
at United Record Pressing-Nashville.

 

One of the best sounding records I've played in the store recently was a
dynaflex(TM) orange label copy of 'Tantamount To Treason' by Michael Nesmith.
I'll bet it weighs 43 grams (laughing).

I'm not so sure there is any correlation between weight and SQ. Just my experience.

 

Crap, I thought that was the best part of the post (laughing)!!!!

 

Some people have posted that they don't believe that a thicker pressing could be better.

Even if the mastering, metal parts and condition were otherwise the same?

My experience is that a thicker record provides a more stable platform, thereby allowing the cartridge to track more easily. Bass response, for example, would theoretically be better on a thicker record. Naturally, the benefits might be more appreciable on finer playback equipment.

I think an important thing to note is that pure thickness of a record will not compensate for other flaws, such as a bad source or poor mastering. Many other things such as quality/ condition of metal parts, and the vinyl formulation (even the color) make huge impacts that are not "fixed" by a heavy pressing.

Perhaps many people here have been burned by purchasing a record that was advertised (and pressed) with thick vinyl, only to find out it didn't sound very good. I know that's happened to me. In all those cases, the problem was an inferior source, or mastering I didn't care for.

And, sure there are many "thin" "flimsy" records that sound great. I would attribute that to superior source, mastering and pressing quality. However, if everything else remained equal, my intuition and experience would tell me that the same record would perform even better if on a thicker piece of vinyl.

Again, I would like to point out that heavier records cost more to produce. Why would record companies and artists spend the significant extra money if thicker records were just a gimmick?

United Records prices for 150g 180g 210g
http://www.urpressing.com/pricing/vinyl/12inch.php

RTI
http://www.recordtech.com/vinyl.htm

P.S. I would be very interested to hear what the experienced vinyl mastering engineers on this forum think of heavy vinyl. Do they see benefits?

 

there's grams, then there's grams!!!

 

Perhaps the Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab UHQR pressings were one of the first. They were advertised as being 200 grams and first released in 1981.

"...The individual UHQR disc is flatter and thicker than a conventional record, significantly reducing disc surface vibration" --from the Technical Specifications Manual of my UHQR Planets.

 

Mobile Fidelity has also issued My Aim Is True? That is confusing. Why do competing audiophile labels keep issuing the same titles? When I get home later I'll scan the outside sticker that was attached to the plastic wrap. It says Kevin Gray, [Edit: AcousTech], 180g, etc.

I bought the "heavy weight" David Crosby - If I Could Only Remember My Name LP last year. I thought I purchased the 200 gram Classic Records issue. I weighed the LP the other day. It is 182 grams. Then I looked at the deadwax. It has BG (Bernie Grundman). I guess I ended up with the Rhino/RTI 180 gram pressing. Or maybe I got severly short changed again. Could have swarn the store told me it was the 200 gram version. Plus the LP was $45/46.99 if I remember correctly. I thought Rhino LPs were around $33. CDN.

 

Eddie, I don't think you're anything. I haven't had a chance to speak to the local retailer yet. I can guarntee you that they will have no answer. They may allow me to return the LP if they can re-seal it and put it back out on the shelf.

Vinyl purchases in Canada anyway, by retailers are one-way. The major record labels and sub-distributors in Canada do not allow vinyl returns. The retailers in turn do not allow us, the customer, to return an LP, because if they do they'll eat that return.

If I get a chance next week I may try to call Rhino to see what they say.

BTW, I'm in Western Canada. I have no point of reference for Joel Grover.

 

Here is the sticker from the Rhino Costello LP. Does anyone else with a scale have the Rhino Costello LP? We'd be curious to know how heavy it is.

 

Gary,

I've been to RTI twice, and from my personal observations, I believe your question, to be the case at RTI. Like Steve mentioned, the machine poops out the biscuit, it's pressed, and then trimmed. Even with just the naked eye, one can see that the amount trimmed is not the same from one pressing, to the next. Now, if you wander over to the area where they throw the test pressings, and misprints, into barrels, many of them look perfectly fine, but for one reason or another, they didn't make the cut. That, along with seeing the attention the folks running the presses, pay to the freshly pressed LP's, gave me the impression there is a high degree of emphasis being put into the quality of the finished product.

Maybe they were just putting on a show for us tourists those two times, but I didn't get that impression in the least bit.

One last thing I'll add; I just recently purchased Elvis Costello's 'My Aim Is True', issued by MFSL, and pressed at RTI. The vinyl is flat as can be, and dead quiet. I couldn't ask for better.

And to Chris R, before you ask...No, I have not weighed the Elvis Costello LP. But it is a heavy sucker!

 

I do believe you have the United Record Pressing version. There is no mention
of RTI on the sticker. Many albums cut at Acoustech are not pressed at RTI.
This is just one example.

 

I want to say... "kudos to Chris R" for doing this thread. Pay no attention to the detractors. However, the Rhino Costello was cut at AcousTech, just like the stcker says. AcousTech however, IS NOT RTI. Sure, they are located next to each other, but AcousTech cuts can be pressed somewhere else.

[edit] Sorry, didn't mean to beat a dead horse, I see nickbloop beat me to it.

 

Despite the hoopla of 180 gram records not being exactly 180 grams, I am wondering where the 'guarantee' is that they are supposed to be 'right at' 180 grams. It'd be one thing if they were explicitly doing so, but they are not. One has to think of the product and the costs that would (might?) have to be incurred for adding in an acceptable level of quality control. (Incidentally I once worked in a very stringent QC position in a hi-tech operation).

I remember standing by as several identical new racing motorcycles were dyno tested and tuned/set up. The horsepower outputs of every engine varied a bit. This is in spite of the (expected) high level of uniformity in the manufacturing and assembling of the engines. I suppose getting back to my candy bar scenario, if we weighed every bar... there would also be some variance.

Vinyl is not a product where the 'target' or advertised weight (lets say 180 grams) is crucial to the performance of the product. I'm not making excuses for wide variances, but usually, piece by piece QC is going to be an added layer to a production system. UNLESS of course the typical vinyl press can be 'set' to a high degree of accuracy and can maintain that as it produces say 5,000 copies of a record. I would also want to know whether the presses are 'set' for a particular dimension (thickness), or the weight regardless of the thickness.

There too many questions about the manufacturing process that need to be answered before wagging a finger (IMO).

 

Hi Chris,
I think your thread is interesting and valid.

In the case of Classic Records I believe the 'Heavy Weight Vinyl' sticker refers to their 180 gram LP's that they used to sell. Perhaps your David Crosby is a Classic Records 180 gram version?

When so many LP's are now being priced and marketed based on weight, how is discussing the true weight of these LP's silly? It's OK to discuss tape dropouts, microphone bumps, chair squeaks or coughs in songs, noisy or warped vinyl, waveforms, etc. but not talk about a premium priced 180 gram LP being far under weight? I don't understand that.

For my money I would like to think that a 180 gram 'audiophile pressing' is going to actually weigh between 170 to 190 grams. I don't think it should be 145 grams, nor do I think it should be 215 grams.

To those saying it doesn't matter, that there's no real 'value' in an extra 35 grams anyway, should it also not matter if the LP is 80 grams too light? Does that not matter either? Perhaps then Classic Records should press all their 200 gram titles as 100 grams and save themselves some costs since it doesn't matter anyway and you're not losing any real 'value' when the weight is off. That is an exaggeration I know, but I think part of this thread is about where do you draw the line in what a company tells you you're buying and what you're actually buying.

If the sticker says 'From the Original Master Tapes' but it's really not, does that not matter either?