The"what,what?" Rega white belt upgrade

Perhaps it does tell us something. It suggests to me that the advantage of the white belt isn't addressing a flutter problem.

We're at over 300 posts in this thread. If we were going to solve the mystery, it would have been a long time ago.

 

We don´t know that. If You look at the Rega FFT plot You uploaded, this can of course greatly be improved. But if it´s done or not with a white belt we have no idea.
If I have had a Rega at hand the problem would have been solved a long time ago, but I haven´t.
You can see here the same type of plot from my own TT.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/39225261/Spectrum.My.TT.3150Hz.png

 

Flutter of 0.02% can be greatly improved?

 

As I said, You can look at the Rega plot and compare with some plots how it should look like. I´m sure You can find some at Milleraudio. You can also compare with mine.

 

Any significant difference / improvement would justify the existence and purchase of such a item. Thing is, Rega still offers their entry level RP1 with the black belt in place. Or it can b

 

Rega turntables sound fine, no doubt about it. As for w&f, they all have typical medium class w&f figures, THE reason there are no specs mentioned in their docs.

If the Technics direct drives were not good, why do you think cutting tables are equipped with Technics drives, the very same drive that is used in the SL-1200 series? No offence meant, its just a fact. Belt driven turntables can only achieve low w&f if a very heavy platter is used, if no wobble is present ( many entry level Rega turntables show wobble ) and have a very stable motor and meticulously machined pulleys and belt rims.

I have owned a Rega and it performed well but, like I said, if have absolute hearing. After time, and even after having replaced the belt, the stability got less and less. I was offered a motor replacement. I replaced the motor myself and it performed well again, only to show the same flaws in due course. So I sold it. And now my 2 Technics and Dual 701 (from 1972) serve me well, unrivalled stability and well made.

However, and this is a strong point in favour of Rega, the simplicity of how the turntable looks and the ease how to operate it is remarkable. Without the bells and whisles and even less than that, they sound absolutely fabulous. But they lack the solidity of both (the old!) Dual and Technics SL-1200 series.

 

I love the smell of wow and flutter in the morning.

 

I wonder what smell that might be....

There is something that hasn't been discussed regarding w@f.;

Ever wondered how records are made? It is well known I assume everyone here knows how it is done. So, it is a analogue affair, cutting of the lathe. The drive on the cutting table has w@f too, so those figures will be shown too in the readings. So the test records all have w@f baked in the groove caused by the cutting tables' drive system. And no matter how accurate a drive system is, the baked in w@f will be noticed by measuring equipment as well. So all measurements must be done with calibrated equipment, taking into account this baked in w@f.

All things concidered, if YOU don't hear w@f, listen to a record you know well on state of the art stuff in a good hifi store. Listen carefully. Does it sound more stable than on your own player? If you think so, try that very same record again as soon as possible back home. Do you notice any inconsistencies as for unstable reproduction?
If so, go back to the store and play it on ANOTHER player. Repeat at home again asap.

Be aware of warpages of the record, so take a well pressed record to the store, this eliminates tracking problems due to warpage. Also, classical records with piano, or piano only are the best for this test. A piano string has an absolute constant tone.

This is perhaps the best way to get to know what w@f is. Listening to test records and reading figures sometimes tell only half of the story. And find out that your player isn't so bad at all. Offourse, I assume you own good quality equipment, so ION and all other ( Basically the same like Crosley, Karcher, Steepletone, new Lenco and even Dual and Philips these days!!!!!) rubbish players under different names should be excluded, they all sound terrible. All can be recognised by a black cartridge, at least they call it a cartridge, having a red needle assembly, sometimes having a plastic ( you won't believe this! ) cantilever.

No matter what you do, invest in a new drive belt if yours is old, w@f often creeps in over time without being noticed. If you notice w@f on a direct drive table, the cure might not be so easy. Many things can go wrong with direct drives. That's why cheaper direct drives should be avoided in general. The best is still used on cutting tables and in our beloved SL-1200 series. There are no better than this!

 

This is of course quite a bit off topic. But very shortly one can say that W&F is much more complicated than this. W&F is measured as frequency modulation of a single tone. So everything that is effecting FM is measured. This means that one can be easily fooled into thinking that it´s speed stability problems one is hearing, if one hears something suspect, but for most high quality TTs, W&F problems is a smaller part and what we usually hear are other problems.

 

Exactly. Figures don't tell the whole story. It is only part of and as a comparison between different equipment. But the nature of the w@f, and if a heavy platter is used flutter is almost eliminated, is, or will be, different on different turntables. Wow isn't though and therefore I adviced to take piano records to the store. Any speed inconsistencies will be noticed quickly by our hearing and once you know what to look for you will be trained from that moment on to recognise it.

 

This is not what I meant. You cannot separate turntable wow from other types of wow. So the fact is, one can dismiss one TT of having wow, but in fact it can be a completely different cause, and has nothing to do with the TT per se. Like an arm resonance excited by the rack it´s sitting on.

 

True. That's what makes it complicated and why I adviced this simple method. If you know the record is okay, it should sound okay on any turntable. But I agree there are so many variables. I wanted to keep it simple for the ordinary user.

 

I've just changed the stock black- for a red silicone belt and the difference is striking; more detail, improved dynamics, more 'open' soundstage etc. The only problem is I cleaned & re-lubed the bearing & popped in a ceramic ball at the same time, so I'm not sure which change has made the improvement. For such a small financial outlay, who cares!?

 

No one has done the obvious: post samples of music played with a black belt and samples of music played with a white belt. A member suggested earlier in this thread that posted audio files would be helpful here. I would agree. At a local shop in town, the owner had a used RP3 for sale. When I saw the table I thought he was a Rega dealer and asked about the white belt. He told me the table was a trade in and that he won't stock Regas because of their poor build as of late (lots of returns and tables not working properly) and suggested I go to the local supply shop and just by a generic O ring that is the same size. I am also reluctant to spend $60 on a belt that may or may not improve the sound of my table unless I can HEAR the difference first. Call me doubting Thomas but if I spent $60 on a belt, I think I would be talking myself into thinking it really DID make a difference in the sound.

If anyone has a white and black belt and would like to record samples I would VERY much appreciate that

 

I believe the white belt is only $20 more than the black belt, so it's not that expensive, relatively speaking. When I had my Rega P5, switching to the white belt did make an audible difference, in more focused imaging and tighter bass. Was the difference jaw dropping? No, but it was worth the extra $20 more than the standard black belt. I also highly recommend the Groovetracer subplatters, as that was an even bigger improvement.

 

^^ This means nothing from a shop that isn't even a Rega dealer. Maybe he's just spending too much time on the internet, but it sounds like sour grapes from your local shop. It's too easy to slag off competitors this way^^ Not everyone can be a Rega dealer or for that matter, keep a Rega dealership, and for many reasons. Curious, is that dealer Rob from Applause? Regardless, I do agree with your thought on the subjective aspect of the upgrade and would also welcome some hard evidence to support justification of the cost.

 

The Technics drive system used in cutting lathes isn't the same one as the Technics 1200 series; it's an SP-02, a much more powerful and sophisticated system than the 1200. The closest turntable drive is the Technics SP-10 mk 3, which was a powerful direct-drive setup, very similar to the cutting lathe setup.

 

I think you really have to be in the room to hear the slight difference. An upload would not do it justice or replicate it.

It's a subtle sound enhancement. But yeah we'll worth $20 more when you need to replace your belt anyway.

 

I agree it sounds like sour grapes indeed. I love my P3-24. I have never had any issues with it at all but it is also now 5 years old and I thought upgrading the belt was the right time to do it. It was not Rob from Applause.

Hard evidence is always helpful. If it is a "subtle" improvement then it is not what I am looking for. Any old belt will probably do (waiting for the responses on this one)

 

Mazzy I appreciate the whole "subtle" enhancement thing but if I can get any o ring or belt that fits and it is cheaper than a Rega black belt and gives the same sonic results I am inclined to do that. I would like to hear the proof via an upload

 

Than someone shall grant your wish. I frankly would probably not hear the difference on line here.

 

You're not gonna get proof that way. Just bite the bullet and spend the money. Skip a lunch or dinner out!

 

The reason I seem like a dog with a bone is that I have done certain enhancements, being told they made a sonic difference, when in reality I could not tell the difference. I found that with the glass platter on the P1. Audibly I did not hear a significant difference but again that is only a P1.

However with the TTPSU I did hear a difference in the P3-24. Significant.

After a while a lot of us get tired of the whole "when I used this butcher block with the right amount of chicken blood on it that it isolated my table better than any other stand" thing when what we really should be doing is investing more money in a better table. I am contemplating the groove tracer upgrades vs an RP6, or another brand of table, although my nature is to tinker around with something to maximize performance. My nature is also driving me crazy lol. Am I alone in feeling this as someone who loves audio?

 

I pretty much agree. I totally get those who want to hear posted sounds but again I doubt you'd hear much difference from a sound file.

As I say often , buy one less Neil Young album

 

And my feeling is, I love those recent Neil Young pressings (Gold Rush, Everybody Knows and Harvest) and I would rather buy great music pressed great than a $60 white belt that may or may not improve performance. To me that is $60 well spent.