The Who-Meaty Beaty Big & Bouncy vinyl reissue

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by beatleswho, Jul 27, 2017.

  1. brainwashed

    brainwashed Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Boston, MA
    Now that's an interesting thought! It seems that using the original master tapes; including fake stereo, stereo and mono mixes as ORIGINALLY released is frowned upon, yet, when they include better-sounding mixes instead of the original singles masters (some in decidedly inferior quality) many are upset, even outraged. Makes you wonder if a re-release can ever please the masses. The Who camp must feel powerless at times... well if anyone there reads or checks out music forums and reviews. Is the aim for best possible audio? Or, using the original masters? How about remixes? Can a Who fan ever be satisfied? So many questions... but few answers.

    An honest question for ALL Who fans. On the new Singles set (which I find VERY nice indeed) would you prefer an authentic singles mix being used even if the sound quality is decidedly inferior to a later remix or remaster, or from a newly-found tape? And on re-released albums, do you prefer the original album masters, or remixes that improves fidelity? Should a supposed 2026 A Quick One re-release be mono-only? A hodge-podge of mono, fake stereo and stereo as originally released? A stereo-only album from newly-discovered (we wish) session tapes? That's what this all comes down to. One's preference for original mixes even if they sound worse over contemporary or modern-day remixes. Ron

    PS I have a mint original 5:15 single and it sounds like crud. The album master, soundtrack remix and other remasters sound significantly better. Why would anyone want a clearly inferior-sounding mix? For historical accuracy? If that's the case, I suggest hunting down the 45 for your collection. It's not like it has an alternate vocal or other distinctive anomaly that would warrant such a release.
     
  2. lukpac

    lukpac Forum Resident

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    You're making a simple issue complicated. Fake stereo is not how those songs were originally released. It also gives "The Who camp" far more credit than deserved.

    For a singles set, the single mixes.

    Mono and true stereo, exactly what has already been done. The problem is simply the true stereo sources and mastering have not been the best.

    Remixes have nothing to do with any of the above issues.

    Better question: why use an edit of a 1979 remix on a 1973 single?
     
  3. dkmonroe

    dkmonroe A completely self-taught idiot

    Location:
    Atlanta
    I wonder, if the new MBB&B was actually compiled using true stereo and mono mixes, how many would be complaining about it?

    (I wouldn't.)
     
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  4. brainwashed

    brainwashed Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Boston, MA
    Because it sounds decidedly better. It's not subjectively better-sounding, it IS better.

    PS I wish with all my heart YOU were in charge of every re-issue and newly-compiled Who album. I just wonder how you would make certain choices. You really would include inferior mixes if better-sounding ones were available because of accuracy or depending on whether the release is a straight up re-issue like MBB&B or a complete Singles Anthology? I'm not sure I would follow that path. But you are THE authority on all this and I respect your opinions. Ron
     
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  5. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your Host Your Host

    That's what I tried to do for the original MCA MEATY CD. The big problem is that in the late 1970s, the Who's material was "divided up" and the earlier stuff (starting, I think, at PICTURES OF LILY and going back) stayed at Brunswick, UK and stuff from I'M A BOY and later) went to the Who for their new TRACK label.

    So in the UK there are two different sets of owners, two different master vaults and a lot of confusion and bad blood. In the USA everything stayed with Decca/MCA so it was easier for me to recompile the set from scratch (I only had an afternoon) but a lot was a tape copy from the UK but at least true mono or true stereo.

    I doubt that would be possible to do in the UK now except by legal wrangles.
     
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  6. dkmonroe

    dkmonroe A completely self-taught idiot

    Location:
    Atlanta
    Yup. I own that CD and it's a delight. I'd buy the equivalent LP in a heartbeat. The division you describe does sound like a legitimate hurdle but you'd think that if anyone could swing that deal it'd be Astley, with his long association with the Who. But I probably presume too much.
     
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  7. The Panda

    The Panda Forum Mutant

    Location:
    Marple, PA, USA
    Thanks for that, Steve
     
  8. lukpac

    lukpac Forum Resident

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Besides the fact that "better-sounding" is subjective, presumably the point of a *singles* set is...the singles.

    I'm not sure what you mean by that. The mono releases (UK LP, original Polydor CD, disc 1 of the 2008 and 2012 SHM CD sets, mono download) are mono, period. The only fake stereo on the most recent stereo releases has been See My Way, which doesn't exist in true stereo. I think that was a poor choice, but at least in the case of the 2008 and 2012 sets the original mono was on the same release.

    It's not a good sounding mix. But again, why use an edit of a 1979 remix on a 1973 single? The original single wasn't edited. The unedited version of that mix is later in the set. If you're going to replace the mix with "something better" (and I wouldn't), why not at least use the 1973 LP mix?

    I'm not THE authority on anything, but I'm fairly familiar with things.

    Fake stereo would be gone entirely. Beyond that, it would depend on the release. A singles release? The single mixes. MBBB? The mixes used for that (alt Pictures of Lily, mono Boris, etc). A new mainstream compilation? Probably vintage stereo when available, then 45 mixes, although something like 5.15 might be an exception.

    Going backwards, it's not a legal issue anymore since everything is Universal now, regardless of era.

    As far as "back in the day" goes, it shook out like this:

    - Band signs with Talmy, who signs with US Decca. Copyright is owned by US Decca, with UK releases distributed by UK Decca (Brunswick). Talmy retains the multitracks and mono masters. UK releases on Brunswick eventually go out of print by the end of the '60s, and US Decca never reissues the My Generation album there, although Virgin eventually does in the early '80s (exactly how is still a bit unclear), and The Who/Polydor get the rights to use tracks on compilations (notably MBBB). This applies to I Can't Explain through Circles, including the My Generation LP.

    - Band breaks from Talmy, signs with Reaction/Polydor. Fight ensues with both Talmy and US Decca. Polydor gets worldwide rights for new material, but US Decca retains North American rights. This applies to Substitute through Happy Jack, including the A Quick One LP.

    - Band creates Track imprint, also through Polydor. Same situation as Reaction. Pictures of Lily through Odds & Sods.

    As far as I know, various Polydor material was or is split between The Who's own vault and various Polydor/Universal vaults. And where the tapes that UK Decca (Brunswick) used ended up is unclear, since they were only a licensee of US Decca. Adding to the confusion is a number of songs had alternate mixes (Happy Jack, Pictures of Lily, etc) or different US and UK mixes (I'm A Boy, Someone's Coming, etc). The first generation master tape for a particular song could have been in any of several different places.
     
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  9. landerstnkb

    landerstnkb Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Massachusetts
    Why was Substitute on Atco Records and not Decca in the States? Didn’t it have to do with the bands split from Talmy and their US distribution of new material being in limbo during the ensuing legal battle?
     
  10. lukpac

    lukpac Forum Resident

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Atlantic/Atco was distributor of Polydor in the US. Substitute was issued via that agreement, but US Decca fought and won the battle for US rights to the band's recordings, so future US releases were back on Decca.
     
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  11. lukpac

    lukpac Forum Resident

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Revisiting the fake stereo issue:

    Listening to an earlier pressing now, The Kids Are Alright, My Generation, and A Legal Matter are in fact simply "tilt[ed] slightly toward the left channel". I believe the bass is actually slightly cut on the left and the treble slightly cut on the right. However, Happy Jack and Pictures of Lily are a much more messy fake stereo, with added delay between the channels. That's probably because those 3 Talmy tracks were taken from a dub of the US fake stereo Who Sings My Generation tape, while the other 2 were (I think) probably taken from a dub of the UK fake stereo Direct Hits tape. That makes a song like My Generation something like 4th generation, at least:

    1) mono master (retained by Shel Talmy)
    2) mono dub for US
    3) fake stereo dub for US
    4) fake stereo dub for MBBB

    And that's assuming there weren't any other dubs along the way, like NAB to CCIR, or vice versa. It could have easily been 5th or 6th generation.

    It also means whoever originally compiled the LP was just grabbing whatever tapes were handy, and/or using whatever tapes were given to them.
     
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  12. reb

    reb Long Live Rock

    Location:
    Long Island
    What's next on the Who LP re-issue campaign-?

    Magic Bus The Who On Tour

    Has as much appeal to me as MBBAB, which is zero.....
     
  13. Stan94

    Stan94 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Paris, France
    I already have « The best of the last ten years 64-74 » on mint vinyl. Does it make any sense to get this ?
     
  14. MYKE

    MYKE Offended By The Easily Offended

    In my current opinion, no.
    The copy Grandma gave me for Christmas in 1971 is now more than enough.
    Since this thread finally, really got going recently, I've began listening to the Who section of my collection again, and boy am I proud I grabbed all the Classics, while they were still normally priced a few years ago.
    Play a track off MBBB, then play the same track from one of those, and get blown back by the improved SQ ( my opinion / my setup ).

    This reissue is simply a cleaner copy of the '71.
    .
     
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  15. oxenholme

    oxenholme High Quality Posts™ a speciality

    It may be baffling to you, but it isn't baffling to me. Bad idea or not, some of us actually liked it.

    The "original fake stereo versions" are those that appeared on the LP back then. The terminology is valid. Perhaps they were derived from the original mono versions.
     
  16. lukpac

    lukpac Forum Resident

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    They weren't even original on that LP. They were dubs of dubs.
     
  17. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your Host Your Host

    Y'all refresh my memory, MBBB came out right after WHO'S NEXT in the USA, correct? It seemed like a cash grab to us back then.
     
  18. lukpac

    lukpac Forum Resident

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    August for Who's Next, October for MBBB.
     
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  19. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your Host Your Host

    I remember someone in our group got MBBB and we played it on her parents' Magnavox console. I couldn't believe the fake stereo stuff, I was really shocked. Terrible sound quality.
     
  20. MYKE

    MYKE Offended By The Easily Offended

    At 13, I couldn't have cared less who was getting paid what, I'll just never forget my Grandmother getting both for me, that Christmas, then learn 7 years ago (here) how my Who's Next is indeed the coveted W2/W2 !?!?!
    I already couldn't believe she literally stocked every brand of cereal my sister and I liked !!!
    :love::angel:
     
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  21. rswitzer

    rswitzer Forum Resident

    Location:
    Golden, CO USA
    Suppose I want to make a CD-R of MBB&B entirely from best known CD sources (best mastering). I want to use original single mixes. What would be the source for each song? (Or would I just use Steve's CD?) Since there's room for more, additional songs choices are possible. Any suggestions for bonus tracks from the same era? Meaty, Beaty, Big, Bouncy, & BEEFY!
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2017
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  22. lukpac

    lukpac Forum Resident

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    This doesn't cover everything, but offhand:

    All Shel Talmy tracks: 2012 SHM 2CD My Generation (note TKAA is full-length on that set, not edited as on MBBB).
    Boris The Spider (mono): 2012 SHM 2CD A Quick One.
    Magic Bus (alt): JPN Then & Now bonus CD.
    I'm A Boy (alt): 2012 SHM 2CD A Quick One.
     
  23. rswitzer

    rswitzer Forum Resident

    Location:
    Golden, CO USA
    Great . . I don't own any of these sources. :(. Thanks for the response. I'll look for alternatives.
     
  24. lukpac

    lukpac Forum Resident

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    The Who doesn’t make it easy.
     
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  25. rswitzer

    rswitzer Forum Resident

    Location:
    Golden, CO USA
    I want it Pure & Easy!
     

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