The Wood Glue vinyl cleaning method

I tried it with Elmer's glue, and it worked to a degree. next time, i'll try wood glue. It didn't work so well for me the first time because I didn't think to use an old turntable to spin the record. Next time i'll do that.

 

Don't use elmers, it's not the same. The trick is to use titebond, or your favorite woodglue, I prefer to use titebond II... Actually going to buy a new bottle today! Hehe the trick is that most woodglues are made of a type of plastic that don't chemically bond with the vinyl. So it's totally safe.
I put a thin strip and let it dry to peel it and compare it to the rest of the lp, a relatively clean LP... The difference was quote scary actually I swear by this method! The only way it won't work for you is if you do it wrong!
I do however have some difficulty spreading it effectively on a 10" lp... Ruined my mat

 

Yeah, the backers of this idea on Audiokarma advise that the best glue to use is Titebond II, available from Amazon at this link. I gotta say, for $20 a gallon, it's cheap.

My big issue with is: I'm already annoyed with having to spend a couple of minutes while cleaning a record on a VPI-17F. Having to wait 6-8 hours would kill me, and with my luck, my ancient Siamese cat would walk across the glued record while it was drying and wreak havoc. Just getting the space for a half-dozen records to dry for this period of time is impractical to me.

I'd like to see if there's a chemical expert who could report whether exposing an acetate-based chemical like this glue to the polyvinyl chloride in vinyl is a good idea. To me, vinyl was never meant to come in contact with anything -- even water -- for more than a minute or so. Any greater time than that, there's bound to be some kind of chemical reaction. Vinyl is very fragile when it comes to this stuff, at least in my experience.

I know for sure the alcohol-based record-cleaning solvent makers warn you not to leave the chemical on records for more than a few minutes. 6-8 hours with this stuff... I dunno.

 

Vinyl does scratch easily but its chemically and physically very tough. Its bonded or fused in heat like its distant cousin glass. Imagine making a well blended chocolate milk then putting it in the freezer, then worrying the elements; even the basic ingredients of cocoa, sugar, milk and fats are going to separate from each other. Yet people come up with all kinds of things when it comes to records because: there's money to be made. Vinyls are used in industrial applications and in arduous situations like weather protection and underground piping. The basic formula for thermoplastics or vinyl has been in use since the 1800's. Twenty years ago I had an older friend who was a chemical engineer (and record collector, primarily classical & jazz). He manufactured vinyl and held at least one patent for iirc formulation. He loved to de-bunk the record cleaning hoopla that existed then. Probably the biggest myth that won't die is that isopropyl alcohol can hurt vinyl. He had a hunk of vinyl in a long sealed jar of it (years) jokingly waiting for it to have any element 'leached' out of it, which of course wasn't going to happen. We used to take cut pieces of standard LP records and expose them to all sorts of acids & alkalies and other substances - then shove 'em under the microscope to see what happens. Petrol based substances of course were pretty harmful for reasons that, as he explained, usually were over my head. He was an advocate of cleaning vinyl with nothing more than clean preferably distilled water and/or water/iso alcohol blends. No surfactants or soaps. I have no idea what he'd say about wood glue though. Seems awfully time consuming in that I can clean an LP in about 2-5 minutes that will rival or better any other method using what I learned from him + decades of practice.

 

In other words your friend would say that enzyme based cleaners are a waste of money? what are the main reasons without getting too technical?

 

Wow, that's very surprising. I was always told that alcohol would damage record surfaces over a long period of time. If that's not so, I'm amazed.

I do agree that having to wait 6-8 hours for glue to dry -- and to avoid letting anything come in contact with the record during that time -- would be an incredible pain in the butt. In fact, I could imagine a hilarious YouTube video of what would happen if, say, three curious kittens started walking across a half-dozen glued records... kinda like the old "Pluto and the Flypaper" cartoon.

 

I ran across this picture about a month ago and was waiting for this thread to come up again. Hopefully it'll provide some proof this glue-process really works. (I haven't tried it myself.) Glue - Titebond II. Availability - see post # 68.

 

I guess that depends on what a long time means. Although iso alcohol is safe for tough & inert vinyl (its safe for sensitive human tissue & electronics) I still advocate a conservative approach when using any cleaning substance except water. A toilet tissue folded into a pad, damped with pure water / iso alcohol, wiped gently on a rinsed or pre-cleaned record (to strip oils like fingerprints or smoke residues). Not slathering, wetting, or immersing.

Its been a long time - I don't recall him saying quite that. I think he didn't see a need to buy or use them with his background. He advocated cleaning, but using the 'kiss' method (Keep it simple stupid!). Simple meant simple substances & practices you know are safe.
Part of our common interest was my interest conserving antiques and old things - metals, paper, textiles, and so on. I recall him saying - and this is theoretically speaking to someone who slathers chemicals or cleaners on something in the attempt to 'clean' or restore an item: "what elements make up this item you're cleaning? You don't know? Ok then...what is in the cleaner then....you don't know that either? Could there be undesired interactions between the two? You don't know that either? So..... what are you doing putting unknown substances onto some other thing which you admit you know nothing about." He wasn't trying to be arrogant or uppity here, the thrust of his viewpoint is that lay people often trust way too much what we are told by sales people without 'really knowing' (ourselves) what the heck we're doing. He taught: be critical, be conservative, err on the side of safety. He was one of many people with a specialized background whom I learned about conserving from. I don't think he was against using cleaners per se...it was more like.... 'learn or know what you are putting on what, don't just trust what someone said' (someone who is usually 'selling' to you). Hope that makes sense.

Remember museum conservators and other like professionals have been stabilizing and cleaning and conserving thermo plastics and their like a long time. An LP record, if you think about it, is not a unique substance in this world. One of the things I learned over a couple decades was learning how & why materials age, deteriorate, weaken, become 'dirty' over time. Reversing the clock helps one understand how to approach a task: do you stabilize, clean, conserve, restore an item? Imagine your record sitting in your house over the last twenty years. What has got on it? Your fingers? paper? air? If you look at a window inside your house that hasn't been cleaned in a few years you probably notice it has built up a slight film. So why would your records, unless shut up completely airtight, be any different then that window? It was in the exact same environment right?

The 'majority' of contaminants that eventually arrive on a record over time are water soluble. 'Dust', human fingers, tiny particles stuck on your fingers like food and so on. If a person did nothing more than simply rinse their record grooves with warm, clean, flushing water, then use a 100% cotton cloth towel to dry it, they have made a significant leap in getting it clean. Clean pure water & cotton doesn't hurt vinyl. As a great electrical conductor water also releases the static charge between particles and the vinyl itself. Once the static charge is released the particle simply falls (washes) away. There's nothing left holding it. (Not talking about 'adhering' substances like smoke tars or oils here). A lot of the slight crackle and ticks that people hear on an uncleaned record is statically charged micro particles clinging to the groove walls that the stylus picks up as it goes down the groove. Rinse 'em away and you're 90% on the way to clean unadulterated vinyl again.

Now as to other types of cleaners - like this wood glue - that's up to the owner. I've used iso alcohol bases on my records for decades now and never once have had a problem of any sort. I limit this as I do ALL cleaning to be extra-safe. Then I do pre-play cleaning on the TT with a dry carbon fiber brush. A typical record in my collection has been cleaned once and its good for.... a long time. But I store them carefully and we don't smoke (although we have oil heat) so they should be good for quite a few years once they're cleaned.

I always marvel at these rather unusual cleaning methods. Using wood glue as described here - presuming it is safe - seems like taking a cross town jaunt to get to the corner market just a block away.

 

Thank you James; your posts in this thread have been the most helpful thing I've ever read in the "hardware" section-- if not for at least debunking the "over-protective" fears of ruining vinyl, which get exploited by cleaning supplies companies and result in buying possibly unnecessary "solutions". After reading your post, I applied some rubbing alcohol + warm filtered water to my LP, cleaned it with a cotton towel and while a couple of the sides did not evidence night and day differences, the majority were noticeably quieter and completely static free. Post of the year imo

 

A friend of mine strongly advocates George Merrill's GEM Dandy cleaner, and I note that there are several guys at AudioKarma who have made DIY versions of it. Anyway, he says that for really gunked up records, nothing he's tried has worked better due to the hydraulic sprayer. He also really likes Merrill's spray-on cleaner.

 

A thought to consider for those of you struggling with some difficult to remove crud on records:

Removing something from a record is not that much different from removing something from glass. A glass cleaner is designed not to scratch or leave a residue. OTOH, glass is tougher and more resistant to chemicals than vinyl. Major corporations have large R&D budgets to develop effective glass and window cleaning products which they can sell in enormous volumes to large lucrative markets, whereas companies developing record cleaning products have miniscule budgets and a tiny market. Therefore, you can expect glass cleaning products to be quite effective but to pose a risk of damaging vinyl if left in contact with the vinyl for a sustained period.

I have encountered several records over the years with embedded crud that I simply could not remove with the usual Disc Doctor, RRL/MOFI, VPI et al products. I invested in a bottle of clear Glass Plus (available at your nearest supermarket), sprayed a small amount on the crud, let it sit a few minutes, "scrubbed" the spot with a Disc Doctor brush, and then gave the record and the brush a particularly thorough rinse with distilled water. In each case, the crud was removed, the record was saved and I was not able to detect any harm to the vinyl from the short-term exposure to the glass cleaner. This is certainly a lot easier than the wood glue method.

This idea is not original with me. A few years ago in one of the countless record cleaning threads on this Forum a chemist (IIRC his name was Justin) made a point about the sophistication of modern glass cleaning products compared to record cleaning liquids (he actually reviewed the formulas).

 

I also worked for a company that made household glass cleaners. They made there own and did private labeling for other companies. This was the 80s and there wasn't much sophistication in the various "Windex clones" formulations. Maybe things have changed a lot since then. Dunno. The "glass" industry is large and varied from telescope mirrors to solar cells so those areas might be high tech with their respective cleaners.

Anyway, I agree with your general premise that a bottle of Glass Plus can clean a record if well rinsed with DI.

 

I've used kid's PVA glue on several LPs recently, with outstanding results.

I'm a convert.

Tim

 

I just did, can't wait to try it

http://www.recordrevirginizer.com/

 

Using silicone to make a copy:

http://mikesenese.com/DOIT/2010/07/how-vinyl-records-are-made-and-how-to-pirate-a-vinyl-record/

 

I just gave the Titebond II a whirl. I did before-and-after needledrops of a 45 of The Mamas & the Papas' "Words of Love" that looks like it hasn't seen a sleeve in 40+ years, and here's what the opening drum roll (slightly magnified) looks like:



It's not perfect, I can still hear a bit of surface noise (there are some scuffs on it, and naturally I can't account for any groove damage from previous owners) but for less than a quarter worth of glue I won't hesitate to use it again on otherwise hopeless records.

 

I have tried this and it works! It's finding glue that's cheap in Singapore which is the problem. I'll try this for problematic records my VPI can't improve upon

 

I am ready to try this on a couple of records that have serious noise issues. A question for those that use this method...once you peel off the dried film, do you clean and/or rinse the record before playing?

 

Okay...I believe.

I have a Led Zeppelin II RL that I bought for cheap. It had been abused and is covered with small scratches. The sonic are great (as expected from an RL) but it played with a lot of snap, crackle, & pop. I loved it anyway.

After trying the wood clue treatment on a complete junker to make sure it didn't ruin anything, I decided to give the RL a go. I had previously vacuum cleaned and Spin Cleaned the record with little improvement.

I just played the LP for the first time after the wood glue treatment and I am very impressed. It is not dead quite but it's not far from it. Based on the condition of the LP, I didn't expect any improvement. I am now ready to glue-up a handful of other LPs that have been problematic.

 

I have just immersed a TRACK UK copy of are you experienced in a gallon of wood glue .You know i think this is going to work.................

 

Tried and True - this works perfectly - submitted my Hendrix Cry of Love RL to this immediately after purchase....sound brand new....no film, no residue. Thsi trick is a thick enough coat....put them on the dining room table under a ceiling fan on low..

What makes this easier is once side 1 dries, flip it and glue side 2 - then you don't have to worry about getting side 1 dirty again, peel them both and slide it in a new MFSL sleeve or something similar....play at your ears delight.

 

I think i may have made i slight mistake by leaving it in it,s cover,what do you think?...........................................................................

 

perhaps, but I expected it.

 

Anyone interested in a sealed copy of ARE YOU EXPERIENCED?

 

I just tried this for the first time with a Led Zep II using Titebond and it worked very well. There was enough physical damage to this disc that I may not keep it anyway, but it was a great first test. The one thing that really gave me fits was getting the initial edge separation. I almost did more damage just trying to get my fingernail under the dried glue. It took a while to get the peel started, but once I did, it all came off in one big, floppy ring. I'm thinking about taking a short strip of medical gauze and laying it into the outer ring of the glue while it's still wet because I think that will give me a handy "tab" to pull it away from the vinyl after drying.