Thoughts on Martin Logan speakers?

And the earliest stat panels were probably from Peter Walker in England and Arthur Janszen in America.
Walker made Quads world famous.
Janszen made a cool stat add-on tweeter back in the tube days (I bought them!).
Both companies are still in business.
I wish I still had my Janszen add-ons.

 

I only heard M-L speakers once, at one of my college professor's house. It was the original CLS panels, driven by a Conrad Johnson MV-75 amp and a PV-2 preamp. I can't remember what the turntable was.

Anyways, at the time I thought it was one sweet sounding and holographic speaker. But... I thought my friend's Quad ESL-63s were better, with more definition, body, and that "clean window into the performance" quality that is hard to pin down. Of course this was with different amps, probably a better turntable, etc so it may not apply in the real world.

 

Martin Logan CLS was their BIG panel with no cone woofer add on.
It was and is considered a "classic."
It has no problem hooking up with a cone driver because there is none.
Quad ESL-63s had a very similar approach .
The difference was ESL-63s had a time delay system which gathered the speaker response into a coherent center "spot" by delaying the signal and focusing it to the center of the panel.
As a result ESL-63s are sought after to this day for their uncanny point source imaging.
Both designs have super clarity and speed.
I'd rather the Quads in a smaller room myself.
CLS Martin Logans might be big fun with a sub woofer perfectly run with them but you are talking very little "Wife Acceptance Factor" in the looks department.
The wife probably wouldn't even like the Quads either.
So factor in the cost of a wife "upgrade"---right?

 

Were you standing or sitting when you listened to the EM-ESL?

 

Sitting for both the ESL and the 702.

 

I'm not commenting on ML's, since the last pair were the MMG's that I heard, while in the dealer's showroom back in 2011. B.T.W., I thought that they sounded horrible. I seem to recall them being $500-$600/pr. back then. I had never encountered miniature ML's before, and could not believe that a company with the reputation of ML would put their names on speakers, which sounded as bad as these did to me.

Since that time, I have read favorable reviews of them on this forum. I have also gotten to the point that my system sounds (to me) better than anything the audio dealer had in their store at that time. Which was all SS. So I have really changed my approach in evaluating the performance of a any sound system or individual component, without understanding the synergy of any and all components in the system.

Back in 2011, when I eased my way back into audio, I did listen to several different speakers, that were in the price range that I was looking for, and I found none that sounded really impressive to my ears.

In the early days of the 21st century, this local chain was bought out by cash investors that wanted to take the chain to a national level. Problem was, they were aggressively expanding, while the economy was contracting, not a good thing. On top of that, people were moving away from audio and into HT systems and personal listening devices. Both of which could be found, by the less discerning public at the "big box" stores, at heavily discounted prices.

After a brief stint in business, the chain declared bankruptcy and ceased business. The original owners, bought back selected assets, from the bankruptcy sale and went on to re-open two large stores and establish new relationships with the manufacturer's, who were anxious to sell their products and were facing the decline in dealer networks.

But, back in the 90's, I had listened to some ML's that were way out of my price range, but I didn't care for them, back then. The panels were fast and responsive, but the bass box, never seemed to integrate with the planer part of the speaker. There was nothing that I liked about the sound of them. I would have not purchased them, if they were far less expensive speakers.

Back in the early eighties I did own a pair of full size Maggies, that were better for imaging, fast, natural sounding and I had preferred far and above the ML's.

But, that was then and this is now. Today's ML's may be all together different, and with the right supporting electronics, may sound truly wonderful, but this, I have know way of knowing.

I will say this. One of my guests at the motel that I operate, has listened to many audio components, that I operate here, has listened to all kinds of different music, from different sources, speakers and amplifiers.

I gave him a system for his room, that has a Peachtree iDac, an Emotiva 50-Watt power amp and a pair of Peachtree D5 bookshelf speakers.

Our local big box store, closed it's original location to move into a much larger store. The audio room was also enlarged and now featured brands like ML and McIntosh.

He was visiting the store and approached the sound room. outside the room's front entrance was a pair of ML's being driving by a Mac amplifier. He told me, later that day, about how awful it sounded.

He was telling me, that even his modest system in his motel room sounded magnitudes better than the ML/Mac pairing. And, was not even close to the sound that I reproduce in my main listening room.

I really have no chip on my shoulder concerning the quality of ML products, although I have never felt that the price tag was in line with any performance that I have heard. I own two ML subs and find them to be very musical. I have one, that I use with my Peachtree D5 bookshelf speakers, in my bedroom (not there now) and one that I used to use as one of the subs in my main system, which is here, but not connected to anything.

At the end of the day, I feel to be inclined to agree with @Benzion that my personal experiences have been underwhelming (at best)

Again, I offer these opinions, which include the opinions of other's both on and off of the forum, but my listening experience has been limited and dated, but I never had the desire to own a pair of ML's (with the exception of their subs, which were designed to be operated with fast planar speakers).

 

The process is starting to take shape. I went back to BB today and listened to the same two songs on both the B&W 702 and the ML ESL-X. These songs were Led Zep's "Dazed and Confused", which I thought would throw a little bit of everything at the speakers. Bass, treble, and pretty much everything in between. The other song I let the Magnolia Dude pick out something. I asked for something acoustic. He selected "The Chain" from the Rumors CD.

D&C was played from Spotify and, as expected, the ML's showed all imperfections in the recording. The CD for Fleetwood Mac came through with a lot of clarity, but I thought a little "bright."

On the 702's, I thought both D&C and The Chain were very neutral. Some of the clarity for The Chain was lost as well as the separation of instruments. However, the neutrality of the 702's appealed to me and improved the sound of D&C. Of course, it has been noted the ML's will bring any flaws of a recording out for the world to hear.

Both were powered by (separate) Pioneer AVR's.

Overall, I gave the nod to the B&W's.

However, my search for speakers is ongoing. I will be auditioning a couple of others at a different dealer tomorrow. Who knows? I may be bringing something home tomorrow.

 

Thanks to everyone who has participated in this thread. I was hoping for some guidance as what to look for in the Martin Logans as I have never gone this route in the past. As always, the SHF crew has been stellar and I appreciate all the input.

I will wait until the auditions I have scheduled for tomorrow to see which direction I may be going. I'm hoping for good things to happen.

I will report back as a decision is close.

You guys have been wonderful and I can not thank you enough.

 

The one thing I'd be worried about with using an AVR as a source is to make sure they're operating in their "pure direct" mode or whatever, and that they don't have their room equalization or time correction circuits engaged. I think those are actually useful gadgets when well-implemented, even with fairly expensive speakers, but they need to be calibrated separately for each speaker you're auditioning if you want to leave them engaged. Otherwise they should be switched off so you have a more neutral presentation. Both speakers could easily suffer from their effects if they weren't the speakers used to calibrate the receiver (or if they've been moved since the calibration was run).

The high end Pioneers have their wonderful D3 amplifiers, which I think are outstanding at driving difficult loads and produce a very clean sound without being harsh. I love mine, but I'd take that into consideration. Neither speaker will sound the same with a comparably-priced Class A/B amp, which in my experience tend to be a bit grungier and could have difficulty driving a more demanding load (I'm assuming the MLs are more demanding than the B&Ws). Higher-end A/B amps have similar clarity and can usually drive difficult loads, and might sound warmer or sweeter or whatever, but they're also crazy expensive.

 

Yep, I had this episode with a BB employee in another session. I changed the AVR to "pure direct" and it was completely different. More lifelike. However, I don't think he was as equally impressed. He was more into the "massaged" modes. I did not do this on this particular listening session. I just let them present "apples to apples." Letting them give it their best shot.

 

I’ve always loved them but they won’t work in my small room, don’t have enough space to pull them out a proper distance from the back wall.
A friend has pair of Monoliths (10 years old, maybe more).
Not a huge room but enough to breathe.
Beautiful

 

I have owed CLS and Prodigy's and really liked them. Placement is critical and high current power a plus, but patience in dialing them in will be rewarded.

 

Wardsweb, Wow, just Wow!! Andromeda mono's?? Woof!! James Bongiorno was the man!!

Well for me personally, it was and will always be 'Sequels' ,mine were so early that the serial numbers didn't show in the Martin Logan Owners database, Jim Powers who was right alongside Gayle Sanders from the beginning of the company, worked the line, mainly crossovers, which many of ya's will say, what is the big deal? Only one crossover on ESL's...haha! there was a magic with that early design Sequel, My best buddy was an EE and was floored with what he saw when I had to replace the woofers, the attention to details, ever little winding was so perfect, just a work of art. He wrote to Jim and told him that he has never seen more beautiful work in all his days in audio, Jim wrote back, "thank you, it's how I roll".

I also have to give the SL3 a shout out as well, just a lovely old thing. I really can't explain what it is about the older ML sound...it's just a certain magic, poor bass integration aside, when you hear that ELS sound, I really don't know what to say, I miss them but, my Summit's make me very happy every day...

 

Ok, decision and purchase made. Decided against going with Electrostats and went with these........

IMG_1020 by Morris Graham, on Flickr

 

DeVore Fidelity Gibbon 88?

 

Yep. First album played was Pink Floyd's DSOTM and it was...........AWESOME!!!!!

 

Review and some test results:

Test Report: DeVore Fidelity Gibbon 88 Tower Speaker

Reminds me of a far-upscale version of my cheap SPL Monitors from the late '80s, a result of Canada's attempts to get into the loudspeaker business as a way to make use of all of their wood.



The Canadians were apparently early adopters of using computer modeling to design better loudspeakers. I subsequently noticed pretty much all manufacturers moved away from the then-traditional 3-way floorstanders and to systems that used paired identical bass/midrange drivers, taller tower cabinets, ports or passive radiators, or some combination of the above.

I got these for cheap from Silo circa '88 and actually drove them for a year or two - to volume - with the amplifier from a big JVC boom box. Hey, when you're poor you've gotta get creative. If they didn't eat up half of my San Francisco studio apartment in the late '90s - and didn't suffer from bad cabinet resonances - I might still be using them. As it was I had to shop for months to find a pair of bookshelf speakers and a subwoofer that I thought bested them. The imaging and soundstage were shockingly good for cheap speakers, and I always attributed that to the offset tweeters. I'm not sure why those haven't become standard.

 

Congrat's buddy!! it's a done deal but, the ESL sound will forever haunt you. Love this pic! It's what it's all about, Dad in the mancave diggin' the tunes!! Feet crossed, happiness! Is that a Spitz? Great little dogs, Woof!!

Thank buddy for this thread, Craig aka stuwee, Martin Logan lover till the day they put me in a box...sorry, just had to say that.

 

Congrats heyMo for pulling the trigger! Not MLs, but hey, glad you're happy with your purchase

Sorry, noob here. How do you tell if an amp has enough current? Was reading through specs and I know the easy stuff like watts, and making sure that amps and speakers can both handle the same ohms, but how do I tell there's enough current?

I'm thinking of a pair of ML EM ESLs myself and am considering driving them with either the Parasound Halo, Cambridge CXA60, Moon Neo Ace, or YBA A100. Not sure how to go about selecting from these but am leaning towards the Cambridge due to pricing more than anything else...

 

No Craig, thank YOU! I know quite a few people who are right there with you. My hearing may be changing in my old age. The ESL-X's sounded just a tad too bright for me. With the DeVore's, I also listed to Joseph Audio Profiles. It was very close between the two, but leaned toward the 88's because their range was a little better.

The dog is an American Eskimo, which are commonly referred to as a Spitz. We've had 5, all Rescues, but only 2 at a time. We are down to just this one now. He was our 4th. The 5th one passed away just before his 16th birthday. Normal life expectancy is around 12 or 13. The one in the picture is guessed to be around 14. He was found wandering the streets with no tags or anything.

Thanks again and I hope you have a great weekend. enjoy those Logans!!!

 

A high current amp will have a power rating which will nearly double each time the impedance is halved. For example, a genuinely high current 100W design should deliver 100 WPC at 8 Ohms, 200 WPChannel at 4 Ohms, and nearly 400 WPC at 2 Ohms. A not especially high current 100WPC amp will typically do something closer to: 100WPC into 8 Ohms, and 150 WPC into 4 Ohms, and only 200 WPC into 2 Ohms.

 

Got it, now I know what to look out for. Thanks!

Looks like the amps I've identified are all more like the latter. Yikes. Back to the drawing board for me...

 

Seems you made an excellent choice. Hope they play well with the Tavish and your Peachtree.

 

Thanks, so far they have been awesome!! It's like....Wow, I've never heard this song like this before. I also bought new Kimbers (Ascent 12 ATC) as the cables I had were bi-wired (at the speaker) and the 88's are not. Not sure what kind of break-in time they may need, but so far, so good.

 

Congratulations!