Too Much Dynamic Range?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Khorn, Aug 10, 2003.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Khorn

    Khorn Dynagrunt Obversarian Thread Starter

    I am discussing the Chesky SACD Disc: Bucky Pizzarelli: Swing Live over on SACDinfo.com and wonder if any of you have run into a similar situation as I have with this recording. Here is basically what I said:

    The problem that I find with this disc...TOO MUCH dynamic range with TOO LOW average levels for reproduction in a "normal" home environment.

    On this SACD the levels are so low on ambient (audience voices) and soft instrumental passages (bringing out good bass definition) that when played back at levels loud enough to bring out this information, when drum shots hit or soloists step up they can be heard a block away.

    Instead of a REPRODUCTION, with a system of wide dynamic range, it becomes REPLICATION of live club levels not suitable in a smaller (than club sized) room.

    At home I want to reproduce live levels AT MY SEATED POSITION not the ACTUAL LIVE LEVELS played at the club!

    Other than that, yes, this is a great disc but the above can be a problem. Unless your system "compresses" the sound, if you can clearly hear them discussing taking the photograph at the end of the disc, then some of the music is going to be too loud for most home listening.

    Thoughts?
     
  2. Uncle Al

    Uncle Al Senior Member

    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    While I am not familiar with the disc you mention, I have heard examples of dynamic range that are not suitable for listening in a "home environment".

    On good ol' regular CD, there was an Elton John disc of remixes from the mid 80's called "The Ultimate Sound of Elton John" (discussed a few times on this board, several members have copies). There are several points on this disc that will make you dive for the volume knob. If you were to adjust the volume at a comfortable level during a soft section of any song, you will find yourself at a stadium concert in the front row at the loud sections. A bit of judicious compression is not a bad thing.
     
  3. Claus

    Claus Senior Member

    Location:
    Germany
    Another example: the Clarity classical recordings
     
  4. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    To me, very dynamic recordings are fun to listen to.
     
  5. sgraham

    sgraham New Member

    Location:
    Michigan
    I've changed my opinion about this. I used to want all the dynamics I could get. Nowadays sometimes I feel like saying "enough already"! Maybe it's the "getting old" factor.
     
  6. Khorn

    Khorn Dynagrunt Obversarian Thread Starter

    That's one of the reasons I'm trying to move, so I can enjoy them again.
     
  7. -=Rudy=-

    -=Rudy=- ♪♫♪♫♫♪♪♫♪♪ Staff

    Location:
    US
    This actually reminds me of my early experiments recording friends of mine onto cassette through the band's mixing board...being of high school age, we had no access to anything like compressors...and the tapes would end up being very uneven in volume, of course.

    I don't have this problem with music except for classical. The newest Peter Gabriel CD, Up, has a lot of dynamics on it...but they are part of its emotional impact. Shouldn't really say it's a problem though...good, proper dynamics, to me, just sound natural.

    What I find annoying are some movies (especially my Connery 007 laserdiscs) that have an uncomfortable dynamic range, even with voices! (If it's later at night and I nudge up the volume to hear the quieter moments, the loud portions are WAY too loud. On the other hand, the Star Wars laserdiscs are more tolerable...the dynamics seem better balanced to the action (or lack thereof) on the screen.

    I took to using an old dbx 118 dynamic range expander/compressor at night...worked wonders. I have a newer dbx 1BX-DS on hand that I need to repair, which is a newer expander/compressor. My Pioneer DV-45A has a feature that will decrease the dynamic range, but I think it only works on Dolby surround audio, not music.
     
  8. Beatle Terr

    Beatle Terr Super Senior SH Forum Member Musician & Guitarist

    This brings me back to the Stones "Got Live If You Want It" US LP. It was awesome to hear that kind of live recording at the time it was like owning the first real released Bad sounding Bootleg.

    However it was good to hear that the band like that and not like their studio recordings.
     
  9. Cafe Jeff

    Cafe Jeff New Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    This is one of the reasons that I believe why some people prefer vinyl. The compression makes listening 'easier.' Jeff
     
  10. nin

    nin Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sweden
    Cafe Jeff, No I don't that why, not for me anyway. I feel it have better dynamic range. But no more talk about this OT.


    I agree, to much dynamic range is not good.
     
  11. therockman

    therockman Senior Member In Memoriam

    I really would like to put in my $.02 worth on this topic. I love a very wide dynamic range, 40-50db is great, when it is natural and not just gimmicky. The low spots at about 68db and the loud spots at about 106db, I feel that that is what gives music life.
     
  12. b&w

    b&w Forum Resident

    While I can understand your point about playing it so the quietest parts are heard it then throws off the loudest parts to something louder then you can play, I can't agree with the fact of having too much dynamic range. I think if you want to capture something like live jazz or live classical music and reproduce it in some recorded medium, that dynamics are essential to giving you that feeling of live. You cant ever have too much dynamic range in a recording. Now you might not be able to play the recording at a level YOU personally like for whatever reason, but pleaseeee don't get mad about a recording that has dynamic range when they are so rare these days. Don't you think the fact if Telarc actually got the recording to feel like it was a "REPLICATION of live club levels" then it adds to the realism of that recording?
     
  13. therockman

    therockman Senior Member In Memoriam

    Exactly b&w, that is the point I was trying to make. And dynamic range is actually essential when dealing with classical music, how can you go from a flute or piccolo solo, to a full orchrastra without a whole lot of dynamic range, that is if you want it to sound something like REAL?
     
  14. Khorn

    Khorn Dynagrunt Obversarian Thread Starter

    The main problem with the recording I refer to is the average levels are recorded so low that reproducing them at what would be considered "relatively normal" levels at the listening position would result in peaks far too loud for the home environment. In other words too much gain is required to make the average levels on this disc sound good and take on some life. Had these average levels been higher less gain would have been required therefore peaks wouldn't be "off the wall" in the 115-120 db + range in the relatively small space where I'm living now. After I move well......
     
  15. b&w

    b&w Forum Resident


    So basically your basing your current opinion on dynamics on the fact that the specific environment your in wont "allow" you to have these "off the wall" peak volumes?
     
  16. Cliff

    Cliff Magic Carpet Man

    Location:
    Northern CA
    One that immediately comes to mind for me is: Telarc's: Wagner "Der Ring Ohne Worte". Super low volume until the dynamics hit. It's a fun CD to listen to!
     
  17. Metralla

    Metralla Joined Jan 13, 2002

    Location:
    San Jose, CA
    That particular SACD is recorded at a very low level. It surprised me.

    Regards,
    Geoff
     
  18. Khorn

    Khorn Dynagrunt Obversarian Thread Starter

    No, I'm saying that the average recorded level is SO low that anyone, including myself and you, wouldn't be able to reproduce this particular disc in any reasonable home sized environment with anything like accurate peak levels even if your system allows it.

    Most systems don't have that problem as they have very little chance or the environment of reproducing the full dynamic capabilities of even recorded music at realistic levels except maybe some acoustic instruments.

    As far as reproducing "realistic" levels of a jazz band or orchestra in your living room ....forget it, it ain't gonna happen.
     
  19. Claus

    Claus Senior Member

    Location:
    Germany
    So true... I know no analog or digital equipment what can reproduce the original sound of a piano or violin. :cool: so it's always an illusion.
     
  20. b&w

    b&w Forum Resident

    Well now your point is much clearer about this disk. Thank you for that followup information. Perhaps your post should have centered around the fact if this specific recording had to low an average level, and the effects that level had on listening to it. You seemed to be looking for ideas about too much dynamic range in general and that's what my comments were on.

    As far as reproducing "realistic" levels of a jazz band or orchestra being able to happen or not, obviously no recorded medium can do that. That doesn't change the basic idea that in my opinion a recording should have all the dynamics it can. That always helps add to the illusion of the live setting/feeling/sound you may be getting from the recording.
     
  21. snowman

    snowman Forum Resident

    Location:
    England
    Some of the early Mofi's are way too low. I don't want background music, I want to hear the band play in my living room.... these discs don't let you do that... no good.
     
  22. therockman

    therockman Senior Member In Memoriam

    I agree with b&w about the dynamics in general not being able to be conveyed by the popular mediums that consumers have acces to. One example is Fleetwood Mac's TUSK. How can you go from a single vocalist to a room full of marching musicans in any where near a realistic way, It is impossible with any home stereo system. But I certainly love to crank this song to try and "recreate" the original dynamics.
     
  23. Metralla

    Metralla Joined Jan 13, 2002

    Location:
    San Jose, CA
    As an example of low level in early MFSLs, I point to "Crime of the Century" on UDI. I have to turn my preamp up a fair way to get this to a satisfactory level. This is no problem - I'm just making the observation.

    Regards,
    Geoff
     
  24. Bob Lovely

    Bob Lovely Super Gort In Memoriam

    You mean they were transferred at an overall low level? When I play these discs, I just turn the volume up. Better than maximized discs - that is for sure! Another trick - run the disc through a recorder and then ride the gain up, then listen to the disc as monitored through your recorder...

    Bob:)
     
  25. snowman

    snowman Forum Resident

    Location:
    England
    I don't know the technical term but I just can't get them loud enough. Sure I can turn the volume up but every Amplifier clips at a certain level... all I hear is distortion and 'noise'. I must stress i hate equalisation and compression. Maybe it's that soft bass and high treble that Mofi employed on some of their discs?
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

molar-endocrine