"Triplicate" - Bob Dylan album March 31, 2017*

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by MRamble, Jan 31, 2017.

  1. soundQman

    soundQman Senior Member

    Location:
    Arlington, VA, USA
    I don't want to say that these songs Dylan is doing evoke nostalgia in the clichéd sense. But they do transport me back to a time when things made more sense to me in some way than does the modern world. I was likely born an old soul, like Bob, even though I'm younger than he is. I think that's part of the reason why he connects emotionally to me on this record. It's sort of like moving back to Minnesota, my home state, and back to my parents' generation. It's another kind of roots music for Bob (as was folk and blues), and for many of us listeners, too. At the same time, the songs are timeless, in another way, as is the singing. Bob will be remembered through the ages, I believe. He will likely be the voice of my generation, as Sinatra was for the previous one.
     
  2. Tim Wilson

    Tim Wilson Forum Resident

    Location:
    Kaneohe, Oahu, HI
    Free samples of ladies underwear or jazz records?
     
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  3. Lucretius

    Lucretius Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cypress, TX
    It's interesting that, to Dylan fans, the little effort required to sing in the same key as the music is considered some kind of perverse academic exercise. I guess this is a function of the Dylan hero worship that demands all music rules be rewritten to accommodate Bob's limitations. So if Bob can't sing in meter, why, we must reconsider the very concept of "meter" in the first place. If Bob goes off-key, as he's done frequently since 1961, the problem isn't Bob's amateurishness and indifference to learning to sing properly; the problem is with "bourgeois" expectations of singing in the same key as the music. If the word "composer" means someone who writes music, and Bob can't write music (as he admits in his Triplicate interviews), then we must re-define the meaning of the word so Bob can be included. And so on.

    I like a lot of musicians who have the same limitations; Woody Guthrie comes to mind. No one is demanding that all Western music rules be rewritten and dumbed down so that Woody's feelings aren't hurt.
     
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  4. Tribute

    Tribute Senior Member

    So, if only Dylan had "learned to sing properly" and "learned to write music", he would have been a whole lot better and more worthy of acclaim.
     
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  5. soundQman

    soundQman Senior Member

    Location:
    Arlington, VA, USA
    Wow. He should have tried to be a classical musician or composer, and then failing at that, got out of the biz, and chose a different line of work altogether, I guess.:rolleyes:

    But seriously, whatever Bob's vocal limitations are, he works hard with them to effect what is trying to get across, or else to overcome them. I don't think it's indifference or laziness on his part. And I don't think music is invadated because it doesn't conform to a set of rigid rules. It's not about changing any rules to accomodate fan worship. Opera may have the highest technical standards for singers and vocal performance, but that certainly doesn't make it the judging criteria for all music. There are folks that look at music or art as a heirarchy of value, with classical composition and performance at the top, and the other forms of popular music descending in rank from there, beginning with jazz, and on down to rock, with folk music and other traditional musics presumably at the bottom of sophistication and talent. To each his or her own, if that's the way you want to look at it. But I find it very insulting that someone would denigrate Bob Dylan fans as a whole as people who accept and even champion poor quality or laziness in musical terms.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2017
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  6. Tribute

    Tribute Senior Member

    If he were not such a great singer, he would be virtually unknown. Really. The songs themselves would be unknown.
     
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  7. soundQman

    soundQman Senior Member

    Location:
    Arlington, VA, USA
    I'm not sure about that; not altogether anyway. Early on in his career, Bob submitted demos so other artists could record them (e.g, the Witmark tapes). Some of the early songs as recorded by the Byrds, PP&M, etc, would have been the big hits they were, and remembered well even had Bob not recorded them himself, I think. That kind of success could have continued, had Dylan chosen to take that sort of path, at least for awhile. It is true that his songwriting was initially noticed through his performances.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2017
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  8. Tribute

    Tribute Senior Member

    Those were recorded by others because of the impact that Bob Dylan had singing on stage in NYC. He was never some Brill Building writer squirreled away in an office. From the moment he first started singing, people took note. This was even before he started publishing his own songs. He was the rage of Greenwich Village, mostly due to that unique and quite incredible singing. The Witmark Demos came after he had a lot of notoriety
     
  9. soundQman

    soundQman Senior Member

    Location:
    Arlington, VA, USA
    But the question is, how much was that taking note of the singing vs. the songs? I imagine that changed some as his fame grew. In the beginning Bob was performing many of the same songs his compatriots were in the Greenwich Villiage scene.
     
  10. Tribute

    Tribute Senior Member

    And that is why he became known...his performances of those cover songs (traditional and those by others) stole the show, blew everyone away. By the time he started performing his own songs he was a force to be reckoned with....He started by doing traditional songs and songs written by others and had gained the attention of everyone in New York. With that spotlight on him, his own songs got a huge boost.
     
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  11. CWillman

    CWillman Senior Member

    Location:
    L.A., CA
    I think most of us who read that interview missed that confession.
     
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  12. philly67

    philly67 Forum Resident

    Yes, yes, yes, that's all "the Dylan fans" do, blindly bow down and worship whatever comes out of his mouth. Are there people that do that-ABSOLUTELY and i've never suffered them for any longer than i had to, but not everyone who likes Dylan is like that for certain. I understand what you're saying, and i am not saying those things don't have value or worth or merit. But that anything outside of those fences has NO value. No, now that is bourgeois to the herringbone hilt. And as for meter...is Ornette Coleman out of meter...allright, so what??? does that make him tone death, that his fingers can't figure out where to hit??? Or perhaps he's just getting to it in a different way??

    I understand why Dylan gets on people's nerves because they hear most singers and wonder why in the world is THIS guy getting all this attention for singing this "off-key" way, it's not fair to XXXXXX. They've been fed from the start what is "music" and everything outside of that is just daggone not. I get it, and i love great traditional singing as well. But guess what, people, well educated, musical and intelligent people from all around the world like & love his voice. What IS to be done with these kids today?!?!?!
     
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  13. Richard--W

    Richard--W Forum Resident

    Fans do NOT consider singing in the same key as the music a perverse exercise.Nor do fans demand that all music be rewritten to accommodate Dylan's "limitations." No do fans demand that the legitimacy of meter be questioned because he doesn't sing in the same meter as the music. Hero worship does not come into play here. There are people who like Bob Dylan and enjoy hearing him do these songs. We recognize what his gifts are and aren't, and we accept him. We accept his performances of these songs. It's that simple. He has every right to sing them to express himself. That doesn't mean we think the rules should be rewritten. Fred Astaire always said that he couldn't carry a tune in a bucket -- and it's true, he couldn't -- but he performed a lot of these songs as well, and more without having to suffer the condemnation of people like you. The only "bourgeois" expectations in this thread are yours'. You're post is offensive, and you're full of it.

    Gracious sentiments, soundOman. I feel much the same way. When I began listening to Sinatra sing these songs around 1998, I found the songs -- and Sinatra -- reassuring. Reassuring. I still do. And I'm deep into the world of Sinatra. I think I understand the grounding these songs provide for Bob Dylan. I'm glad for his sake he found them.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 16, 2017
  14. dylankicks

    dylankicks Forum Resident

    Location:
    Oshkosh, WI
    There is something about his history, and my relationship with him as a listener of practically everything he's done, that make many of these songs resonate with me. I can understand why they don't for everyone, but he is much more believable when he sings about pain, suffering, and heartbreak than possibly any other singer I've listened to. That is pretty powerful to me and many others, and any criticism of it makes no difference to me.
     
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  15. Bemagnus

    Bemagnus Music is fun

    A posting like yours-with all due respect- is like a living example of the music-teacher syndrome some have when it comes to criticize artists like Dylan. I actually have not seen anyone claim that Dylan is a composer in the Mozart, Gershwin mode-not least himself. Neither have I seen anyone claim that Dylan is a singer in the vein of Pavarotti or Sinatra. That the opposite to trained musicians and composers should be-according to you-amateurish-is totally nonsense imo. Also lines like "indifference to learn how to sing properly". properly according to whom?
    We are talking about a man who has sold hundreds of millions of albums, sells out hundreds of concerts each year, is the subject of hundreds of books and recently was awarded the Nobel prize in literature besides all other prizes he have received both as a musician and a writer. And some know it all here feel obliged to call this man amateurish and never able to "sing properly".
    Its kind of funny-and perhaps a bit stupid.
    I have never been thinking that the rules of music theory should be rewritten just because Dylan and countless others express themselves in ways outside of that theory. It s up to each and everyone to like what they like and noone-not even you-have the right to telling them of.
    Personally I own hundreds of albums within the field of classical music and never once have I felt e need to compare the pleasure I get out of those with the pleasure listening to the likes of Dylan gives me. It s a bit silly imo
     
  16. Soul Music Fan

    Soul Music Fan Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK
    More Standards on the way?? Seems unlikely but...

    At 75, Dylan still remains a voice that is as unique and powerful as ever. He’s back on the road and fresh from the success of ‘Triplicate’, there is yet more music in the pipeline. There’s more Sinatra coming out later this year and after that, who knows,” he said. “I’m still here and that’s something I don’t take for granted; music is a very fickle business.

    Bob Dylan made a bargain and he’s keeping to his part of it...
     
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  17. PretzelLogic

    PretzelLogic Feeling duped by MoFi? You probably deserve it.

    Location:
    London, England
    I would not be averse to this. However, a new set of self-penned songs would be preferable.
     
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  18. Soul Music Fan

    Soul Music Fan Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK
    I can't really believe this quote/interview comes from Dylan. It's from a Scottish small local newspaper....:shake:
     
  19. Tribute

    Tribute Senior Member

    There is one thing most of us have learned over the years - not to take everything published in his interviews absolutely literally, word for word. Such as how he managed to tour with a carnival as an adolescent and still finish high school with all his best friends. He enjoys playing with words, whether in song or in conversation.
     
  20. MAYBEIMAMAZED

    MAYBEIMAMAZED Don't think Twice it's alright

    Location:
    DFW TEXAS
    You either love or hate Dylan it's something different for everyone. The understanding of Bob Dylan and liking his songs goes a lot further than singing in key.
    There are tons of bands and famous people who did not sing the best but they have fans. Some of the most simple stupid songs have been hits. It's a matter of opinion and sometimes they can change and some will never see this.
     
  21. onlyconnect

    onlyconnect The prose and the passion

    Location:
    Winchester, UK
    Some of this debate feels like going back to the sixties and seventies. "He can't sing." Dylan fans have lived with this always.

    Tim
     
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  22. Tribute

    Tribute Senior Member

    My mother bought me Bob's very first album when it came out, I was shocked, and worked hard to enjoy it. At that time, "Please See that My Grave is Kept Clean" did not resonate with an adolescent boy..so it was a struggle. But when she got me Freewheelin, songs like Bob Dylan's Dream really resonated, because I really missed my friends from when I was still shorter than the Easter Bunny. From then on, I was the one buying Bob Dylan albums with my own money from returning empty soda bottles that I found in the woods. That was always a struggle trying to convince the shop owners that the 30 year old bottle that I found in the mud was actually one that I had just bought the day before. Even at that age, I didn't buy soda because I thought the money would be better spent on records. I still feel that way.
     
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  23. Richard--W

    Richard--W Forum Resident

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  24. Tim Wilson

    Tim Wilson Forum Resident

    Location:
    Kaneohe, Oahu, HI
    Yeah, but I was living nowhere near Greenwich Village, which I'd at least heard of. Gaslight? Not. Witmark who? But I HAD heard of Peter, Paul & Mary, The Byrds, and a bunch of other people whose recordings of Dylan songs when I barely knew his name at all, and then, ONLY as a writer. There's a reason why the "Nobody Sings Dylan Like Dylan" ad campaign fired up in 1965. Even most people who knew him a writer had yet to hear him sing!

    Which is to say that I agree completely, it was his singing that grabbed me around the throat. Just a few years later though.

    His first charting single was "Subterranean Homesick Blues" peaking at #39 -- only on the charts 8 weeks total, so hardly a hit. I'm positive I wasn't the only guy in America who didn't really take notice of him until I actually heard his voice on "Like A Rolling Stone" a few months later. Otherwise Columbia wouldn't have built a lengthy multimedia ad campaign around this very fact.

    A year later. This campaign was running in 1966.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    [Edit: I thought I'd doublecheck the provenance of those ads. The latter is from the Dec. 25 '66 issue of Billboard, page 8....but the former is from the back cover of the concert program from Manchester!!!! Scans of the full program, as well as a ticket, here.]

    So yeah, if you were living in an urban area with decent radio that played songs by liberals and such :laugh: or actual record stores, maybe you heard Dylan singing before the summer of 1965. I bought all my records in grocery stores into the mid-70s when a Peaches opened up half an hour away, just about the time I learned to drive. But for millions of us in America America, Dylan wasn't really Dylan until we heard him sing, and I don't know about you, but I've still never heard anything as powerful as that roar of that performance of "Like A Rolling Stone." The way he sang. I mean, sure, that's a hell of a song, but the singing, man o man, the singing.

    For my parents, Sinatra was The Voice. For me, it's Dylan. It just is. Not that I'd compare them, or ever have expected Bob to be singing so many songs that Frank did too. I'm ready for him to spend more time singing his own stuff mind you, but I love that he's singing, and I love that he still sounds this good. And yes, I think he sounds good.

    That's a weird little article. Some folks at Expecting Rain point out that the quotes are from earlier interviews. There may not be a word of it current. Details here.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2017
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  25. Darrin L.

    Darrin L. Forum Resident

    Location:
    Golden, CO
    I disagree...it's really isn't so simple. I absolutely love Dyan up until BOTT and Desire, except for missteps, such as the self-portrait debacle. Really...I think his best vocal period was BOTT and Desire. From there, it becomes spotty. I'm one o the few that thinks slow train was great, much of Infidels, Oh Mercy, but kind of ran out of steam by the second side...but he became unlistenable, for me, when his voice started sounding like a kazoo.
    So I don't understand the mentality that one either love or hates Dylan.
     
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