TT Rim drive vs Belt vs Direct Drive Sound

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by allied333, Feb 23, 2018.

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  1. allied333

    allied333 Audiophile Thread Starter

    Location:
    nowhere
    I am curious why vintage higher end rim drive TTs sound better than most vintage belt & direct drive turntables?
     
  2. IanL

    IanL Senior Member

    Location:
    Oneonta, NY USA
    Although I think "better" probably falls under the category of subjective, a reason commonly given for the different sound of vintage rim drives is the amount of torque of the motor. That, and the accuracy and consistency of rotation speed, at least compared to belt drives.
     
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  3. missan

    missan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Stockholm
    That is a straw man argument, as the subject is subjective.
    Having said that there is a difference in how the rim is damped. On the other hand the rumble on a DD is very much lower, normally.
    I have heard examples on all different drives, some not so good, some extremely good.
     
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  4. thegage

    thegage Forum Currency Nerd

    Somewhat tongue in cheek reply: because today people spend thousands of dollars to modify them?

    John K.
     
  5. Agitater

    Agitater Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto
    . . . because most “higher end” designs tend to be better than many non-higher end designs in many disciplines. Your question may be either ill-considered or purposefully biased. In fact, only a small percentage of any maker’s turntable designs (idler, belt or direct) are considered higher-end of high-end. Your question seems to compare higher-end idler drive designs with non-higher-end belt and direct drive vintage designs. If that’s your intent, it’s obviously an unfair comparison.

    However, when you pit higher-end rim drive/idler drive designs against higher-end belt drive and higher-end direct drive turntable designs, the sound quality difference disappears completely. There may remain differences in the audible presentation, but the high quality of which each design is capable are wholly audible. That one music lover prefers the presentation of one design over another does not make bad the presentation of designs that weren’t peferred.

    I like @thegage ’s comment. Audiophiles in many places have over the past ten or more years that I’ve been paying attention to idler drive turntables been spending staggering amounts of money for restoration, exotic plinths and highly evolved tonearm designs. The results are bound to be (and are) wonderful turntables. Precisly the same thing is true for all of the high-end, vintage belt and direct drive turntables that have been restored in recent years. The results are, again, typically wonderful turntables.
     
    AllenR, SandAndGlass, nosliw and 2 others like this.
  6. ssmith3046

    ssmith3046 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Arizona desert
    I own and use three Duals on a daily basis. My 701 and 1229Q both use V-15 III DU cartridges and both use Morrow PH4 phono cables. The 701 is direct drive and the 1229Q is an idler. I switch around styli between a Jico SAS, HE, and elliptical. To tell you truth when I'm using the same stylus on both turntables they sound about the same to me. Might be my old ears.
     
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  7. Agitater

    Agitater Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto
    . . . or more likely your reliable experience and good sense.
     
  8. Socalguy

    Socalguy Forum Resident

    Location:
    CA
    They don't.
     
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  9. rischa

    rischa Forum Resident

    Location:
    Mt. Horeb, WI
    Audiophilia is the only hobby I know of where you can get called-out for both subjectivity and science. We are a strange and unusual bunch.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2018
  10. missan

    missan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Stockholm
    We are a strange and unusual bunch.

    That goes without saying if you are very interested in something profoundly uninteresting.
     
  11. R. Totale

    R. Totale The Voice of Reason

    I don't get how a turntable that has an identifiable "sound" is considered anything but defective.
     
  12. allied333

    allied333 Audiophile Thread Starter

    Location:
    nowhere
    A large group of us brought their TTs and compared all. it was determined my Garrard 401 was the best. TT included Dual
    Some TTs just sound better than others. Others were not defective. I am not exactly sure why some TT sound better.
     
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  13. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    I don't know. I'm not particularly educated when if comes to designing TT's. But one thing that I have noticed is the the idler drive TT's of years past, seem to have a more "solid" sound than many other type designs.

    I have a Thorens TD-160 Super (vinyl nirvana restoration) and it sounds perfectly fine.

    I have a couple of vintage Dual TT's that are rim drive and they are much less expensive but have a very solid sound to them.

    Since these are the sounds that I have grown up with, they are the sounds that I feel that I can personally associate with and enjoy.

    Many of the newer TT designs, sound "thin" to my aging ears.
     
  14. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    Each and every piece of audio equipment has its own unique sound signature associated with it.

    How that piece of equipment will ultimately sound is subjective and dependent on the room, ambient temperature and density of the air, along with all of the associated equipment and everything else in the audiophile universe.

    There exists no universal sound standard for purposes of comparison.

    No matter what I am listening to, someone else is listening to the same source with different results.

    Just the way it is.
     
  15. sublemon

    sublemon Forum Resident

    Well, *I'm* convinced.
     
  16. Agitater

    Agitater Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto
    Deeply funny!
     
  17. allied333

    allied333 Audiophile Thread Starter

    Location:
    nowhere
    Just in case. Don't follow my advice. I am only asking a perhaps 'dumb' question. I am far from an expert on TTs.
     
  18. matteos

    matteos Stereotype

    Location:
    US
    Can't go wrong with a good idler.

    Provided you drop it into a massive and heavy plinth.
     
  19. R. Totale

    R. Totale The Voice of Reason

    Job of turntable, turn record at 33.3333... rpm without audible speed variations like wow or flutter or influence from its physical environment like ambient feedback from lack of isolation. Job done or not. Not, defective. What am I missing?
     
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  20. Mugrug12

    Mugrug12 The Jungle Is a Skyscraper

    Location:
    Massachusetts
    In the large group comparison did everyone use the same tonearm? That seems like a tall order. If the arm/carts were not exactly the same, don't you wonder what exactly you guys were comparing?
     
  21. allied333

    allied333 Audiophile Thread Starter

    Location:
    nowhere
    Not same tone arm, but all high-end cartridges. My Denon was lowest cost cartridge on Garrard 401. No TT cost over $1500 either. And, no it was not near a perfect A/B test. Just noticed idler type sounded best with Dual 1229 in third place. A Lenco L-75 was second place. All top three places was rim (idler) drive. Perhaps just a fluke.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2018
    matteos likes this.
  22. gov

    gov Forum Resident

    Location:
    NYC Metro
    Total noob with idlers of my own although my father had a Garrard my entire life so....

    I wanted to find out all the fuss in my system. Kept my eyes peeled for a while for a deal on a Thorens or Garrard and recently picked up a TD124. I’d also been auditioning tables (mostly belt drives) up to $4k and to these ears the 124 sounds heads and tails better than anything I auditioned.

    However two giant grains of salt—1) it took me a few weeks and *bunch* of tinkering to get it where it is now (and it was restored before I bought it) and 2) I’ve found auditioning tables to be about the most frustrating of audio evaluation endeavors. Seemed it’s never the same tonearm, amp, speakers etc. and so making sound (pun intended) judgements was more unreliable than with say an amp or speakers. Dunno if it’s just me but that’s what I’ve found.
     
  23. allied333

    allied333 Audiophile Thread Starter

    Location:
    nowhere
    We used same amp & speakers. Marantz 8B amp with upgrades & Wharfedale W70s with upgrade vintage oil capacitors. The W70s are better than AR-9 speakers, but a little light in the bass.

    The top three TTs were rebuilt with custom plinths & new tone arms. The Garrard 401 had a new 12" Jilco SA-750L tone arm with magnesium shell and Denon DL-301 II cartridge.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2018
  24. allied333

    allied333 Audiophile Thread Starter

    Location:
    nowhere
    Oh. Denon DL-301 II was used with Denon AU-340 step up.
     
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